Norman

Tim: Near the geographic center of the United States, within the Osage Plains, rises Norman, Oklahoma, a city whose significance in literature extends throughout the nation and across the globe. Home to one of the world's most prestigious awards for a career in letters, a widely appreciated international journal, and an impressive representation of active writers, Norman has etched itself on every literary map. The city also has witnessed intense, almost unmatched American realities pioneering, migration, displacement, suppression, perseverance, solidarity. Such textured source material continues to inspire Norman's acclaimed and aspiring artists, who carry on storytelling traditions handed down throughout generations. A globally renowned, quintessentially American, and continuously inventive community, Norman, Oklahoma welcomes visitors on a powerful lit trip. I am Tim Costano and this is Lit Trip, where we take you on a tour through a location's literary past, present, and future. Writers, scholars, civic leaders, and fans guide us through the history, influences, traditions, and contributions that transform a place into a destination. If you enjoy stories, personalities, and escape, come lose yourself in a Lit Trip. Norman serves as home to the Neustadt International Prize for Literature, colloquially known as the American Nobel, awarded since 1970. Celebrating novelists, poets, and playwrights. Honorees have included such figures as Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Patricia Grace, and Bubakar Boris Diop. The Newstat Prize is sponsored by the University of Oklahoma and World Literature Today, a periodical with considerable reach and recognition earned over its one hundred year lifespan, a period chronicled in the recent publication A Compass on the Navigable Sea Edited by Daniel Simon Together, the Newstat Prize and World Literature Today, endow Norman with unmistakable cosmopolitan gravitas. We spoke with doctor Simon, who is editor in chief of World Literature Today, to which he is devoted over twenty two years.

 

Tim Castano: literature today presently celebrates its 100th anniversary. In fact, you recently released a compass on the navigable sea, 100 years of world literature for the occasion. What does it mean to you and the team to steward such an enduring cultural asset, especially one with a lifespan that parallels a transformative epoch across the globe?

 

Daniel Simon: Well, I would say just looking back a century, if you consider the mid 1920s, how much literary modernism was flourishing at the time. And of course that was a transatlantic phenomenon. And most people think of New York and Berlin and London and Paris as the capitals. But in 1925 alone, Virginia Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway, Marcel Proust's Albertine Gonne, Franz Kafka's The Trial. Alan Locke's The New Negro and F. Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby were all published in what the BBC once called the greatest year for books ever. But in the United States, there was this political isolationism growing after World War I, which really prevailed at that same time. So you have the Immigration Act of 1924, which imposed sharp limits on who could come to America's shores. The social fabric was being rent by recent race massacres and Jim Crow policies. And by the end of the decade, of course, the Great Depression. But Roy Temple House, who was a young professor of German and chair of the Department of Modern Languages here at the University of Oklahoma, nurtured another dream, which he fostered in the pages of a literary magazine he dubbed Books Abroad. So now, 100 years later, the United States seems equally strifed horn. But rather than looking inward in a naval gazing sort of way, our mission is to continue looking out to the world, keeping a finger on the pulse of international literature and culture, and promoting what we consider to be the best of that culture in the pages of world literature today.

 

Tim Castano: You published Republic of Letters to mark the 50th anniversary of the Newstap Prize. Early in that work, the point is made how the Newstapp Prize originated very much within the context of American ideals. sits almost at the geographic center of the United States. Have you ever reflected on the significance of this prestigious international prize emanating from the heart of the country?

 

Daniel Simon: I really have, since I published the 50th anniversary Newstatt anthology in 2020, really thought quite a bit about how the history of Oklahoma is really a crossroads of cultures and translation in many ways, where you have Spanish and French explorers, African-American homesteaders, and Anglo-European settlers all staking their claims to a territory that had been the domain of native nations for centuries. And in the center of that contested landscape and against that grain of isolationism that I was talking about, Dr. House, who had assisted European orphans and refugees after World War I, really believed that launching a literary periodical on the Southern Plains might, quote, begin fostering contributions to the scholarly and cultural activities of the nation, unquote, as he wrote in a letter to the university's president in fall 1926. So in January 1927, just 20 years after Oklahoma statehood and with a startup budget of $150, House launched this magazine as a modest 32 page pamphlet. And it had a top sale schooner and the motto, light from abroad emblazoned on the cover. And this publication would come to, in my mind, represent a metaphorical inland harbor, which is equidistant from the Atlantic and Pacific coast. So in the late 1960s, Ivar Ivask, who is our Estonian editor for 24 years had this idea for the Newstapp Prize, which he thought would be a reflection of American ideals in literature and not just what he considered the Nobel prizes, sort of superannuated criteria for awarding mostly European writers the award late in their careers. And so by 1970, he found $10,000 to give the very first prize. to an Italian writer Giuseppe Ungaretti, who had been born in Egypt, and then in 72 to Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the Colombian writer who had become famous for 100 years of solitude. So right off the bat, this idea for this international prize coming from the center of the country was kind of an anti-Nobel, but was really tied to the journalist's identity at the time in the late 60s and early 70s.

 

Tim Castano: Through your work, you introduce authors from around the world to Norman. What are their impressions?

 

Daniel Simon: Well, three really come to mind. And the first one really predates my time at World Literature today. But there is a French-born literary scholar named Henri Père, who was a frequent contributor to the magazine in the mid-20th century. And he once wrote that Norman Oklahoma sounded to many a European ear as Persepolis or Samarkand, once may have done to Marlowe or to Keats. So I always. I always thought that was a pretty pithy, quotable quote. And then during my tenure with the magazine, we hosted Polish poet Adam Zagievski in 2004 as that year's Newstapp Prize winner. And he made this audacious claim that Norman has established itself as one of the undeclared capitals of modernity. And if you know his kind of tongue-in-cheek humor, you can... be assured that he said it with a wink, but I think he was also sincere in his compliment. And then finally, our 2016 Newstapriest laureate Dubravka Ugrasic had this to say in her acceptance speech. I couldn't have dreamed that one day a student theater in Norman, Oklahoma would be putting on the first ever staging of my story written 33 years ago. The literary landscape that has greeted me in Norman has touched me so deeply. that I briefly forgot the people who are stubbornly taking us back to some distant century, the people who ban books or burn them, the moral and intellectual censors, the brutal rewriters of history, and the latter-day inquisitors. So I really enjoy those three particular authors' perspectives on thinking about how they responded to their visits to Norman and what the what their impressions have been over the years. Of course, Kafka never came to Oklahoma, but he set his final posthumous novel, The Nature Theater of Oklahoma, was one of the great scenes in America. And so there's always been, I think, a fascination with this idea of Oklahoma as a place for lighting out to the territory and making. It's taking a claim here.

 

Tim Castano: What sites and locations would you recommend to a visitor who wishes to understand Norman's literary history as well as its current artistic community?

 

Daniel Simon: Well, I'd start actually right here in the building where I'm sitting, which is Monette Hall on the North Campus, which is kind of the historic heart of the University of Oklahoma. And Monette Hall is home to, or until this month, was actually home to the Western History Collections, which represent an incredible trove of manuscripts, photographs, and books that date back to the 1890s, in addition to containing world literature today's archives. So while I was working on A Compass on the Navigable Sea, the centennial anthology project, just sitting in the great reading room up on the third floor of Monette Hall felt like sitting in the crow's nest of a great ship sailing along the southern plains as I was reading letters from some of the 20th and 21st century's greatest writers. So these collections are open to the public so anyone can come and consult them. But there have been so many incredible writers that have gone to the University of Oklahoma over the years, especially in the 1920s. Munalee, Lynn Riggs, and other writers were students here. And so there's a great tradition of creative writers who have come from the campus. And many of their papers are in the collections in the library. Then just a stone's throw from Manette Hall is Historic Holmberg Hall, which has been hosting writers, performers, and visiting politicians since 1918, including William Butler Yeats, William Howard Taft, Louis Armstrong, Marilyn Horn, and Martha Graham, among some of the early most prominent names. For the current artistic community, I'd recommend a visit to Green Feather Books, Norman's native-owned independent bookstore, the Second Wind Coffee House, which is close to campus, which hosts a monthly open mic poetry reading. And then there's just a rich variety of art galleries which line the streets of downtown Norman, which is home to the Norman Arts Council, along with terrific venues like the historic Sooner Theater. And then you have performance events throughout the year, like the one sponsored by the Weizenhofer College of Fine Arts on campus, the Norman Music Festival, the Medieval Fair, the Summer Breeze Concert Series, and the Firehouse Art Center, and then Jazz in June. providing an incredible range of year-round cultural diversions.

 

Tim Castano: you engage in almost every stage of the literary life cycle. So you educate new voices, you shape the contributions of active authors, you create your own work, and you celebrate among the most established writers in the world. Do you find working across all enhances how you perform in each?

 

Daniel Simon: Yeah, I would say as a campus-based publication, world literature today is really tied into the educational mission of the University of Oklahoma. And so we work with students who are interested in getting involved in publishing or becoming writers or translators or artists in their own right. And so a lot of them will do internships with the magazine. teach a course on magazine editing and publishing every year. We offer seminars connected with the writers who come to campus through the Newstap Prizes and the Peterbough Festivals every year. And that teaching mission really, I think, animates my own work as an editor, as a writer. My wife and I have three daughters. They've all grown up here in Norman. Now they're in their 20s and kind of spread their wings and gone on. to other things, but they all had the opportunity to meet some of the visiting writers who would come to campus. I think that's kind of rubbed off on them as in their own aspirations to do creative writing and cultural work. But really, I do think every aspect of the work that I do with WLT, from the Nobel Prize winners and Newstap Prize winners down to emerging writers. enhances everything else that I do as a poet, as a translator, as a parent, and as a professor here on campus.

 

Tim Castano: your own poetry draws deeply from a sense of place. How does Norman resonate with you as an author and do any of your poems speak to your relationship with the city?

 

Daniel Simon: Well, I think back to the early 2010s when I wrote the very first poem of a book that I was calling at the time, Oklahoma Burning, which would appear in my debut collection of poems, which I ended up calling Cast Off. But this particular poem I see as kind of the urr text of that particular collection because we were experiencing a summer heat wave. In 2012, I believe, more than 60 days, the high temperature topped 100 degrees here in the state. So I sat down and started thinking about what it means to live on the Southern Plains and in this particular climate and in this geography and geology and thinking about all of the non-human species that are part of the landscape here. I wrote a poem in dialogue with Elizabeth Bishop's great poem called At the Fish Houses, which is set in the icy North Atlantic off the coast of Canada. And I could read it for you if you're interested. This

 

Tim Castano: Yes please, please do.

 

Daniel Simon: is my poem called Oklahoma Burning. It begins with an epigraph, as if water were a transmutation of fire, which is a line from Bishop. What we imagine knowledge to be, writes Bishop, some thing that's flown. Does she mean in flight or flowing down? Heraclesian river of change or the just eluded evanescence of what flits within grasp of our fingertips. That deluded surety, which comes with stasis. Knowledge not known, but flown. A knowing drawn from the world's rocky breasts, a cold hard mouth more straining than supple. Labials from cracked lips unslaked, parched by a flame both deep within the earth and wheeling, wrapped to sky torn, not flowing but drowning. And this atmosphere, breathless, bowed down, blown. That's called Oklahoma burning.

 

Tim Castano: What do the next decades hold for oral literature today, for the Newstapp Prize, and for literary life in Norman?

 

Daniel Simon: there days when I'm really ready to hand over the reins of world literature today to the next editor-in-chief so I can ride my Rocinante into the sunset. seriously though, I think we have a really great creative team in place that will set the magazine on a steady course for the next 100 years with great leadership from our executive director. Dr. R.C. Davis-Undiano, the current provost at OU, the president, who are all very supportive of our mission. So in September, we'll host the Palestinian writer Ibrahim Nasrallah as the winner of the 2026 Newstatt International Prize for Literature, which promised to be a landmark occasion. And really, Norman will continue to be an undeclared capital of modernity for those who live here and for anyone who wishes to seek out this Mecca on the southern plains.

 

Tim: Just as the New Stat Prize and world literature today exist within the University of Oklahoma, the university itself sits within Norman's larger literary ecosystem, which includes festivals, readings, clubs, and independent publishing houses. Greenfeather Books has established itself as an essential resource for readers, authors, and bookish travelers, partnering with a number of Normans institutions to enhance offerings for the Heather Hall founded Green Dreather Books and brings to the city's ongoing cultural conversation her insights as a bookseller, a writer, a Norman native, a Chickasaw citizen, and as a judge for the National Book Award Foundation. Greenfeather Books opened in August 2022 and immediately established itself within Norman's literary ecosystem, which includes the University, the Newstapp Prize, among other initiatives and platforms. As someone born and raised in Norman, who has enjoyed a lifelong love of books, what does it mean to play such an important role in your community? And how do you collaborate with those other entities to generate complementary programmatic offerings?

 

Heather Hall: Is such an interesting question. I because I don't I think when you're in the big middle of planning events and putting things together and buying books and shelving books and planning pop-ups at different events, you don't really think of yourself as important. I'm not gonna lie. You think of yourself as doing the job, right? So in terms of the importance of that landscape, Until I heard you say that, I I don't think I ever I ever thought of myself as being important to the literary landscape in Norman. I know that I personally to speak to the importance of some of those other things, I personally have read world literature today since I was in high school. and reading articles and not having any idea until many years later that World Lit Today was a was a product of a department of the University of Oklahoma. I did not understand the connection there. until I was asked to be the bookseller for the Neustadt festival, which is was very exciting. I knew about the Neustadt entering into bookselling from conversations with other booksellers and kind of shock from other booksellers that we didn't have a an indie bookstore prior to us opening.

 

Tim: you

 

Heather Hall: because of the rich literary history and and as you're saying, like the kind of that landscape that exists in Norman. and then Getting to write an article for World Lut today was very exciting. It was very like I don't know how to describe it, but like you sort of know your younger self would be super delighted with you right now. Do you know what I mean? One of those sorts of moments.

 

Tim: You've made

 

Heather Hall: Yeah. Sort of. It was a sort of you've made it moment. So one of the things I love getting to work with, and this has been a relatively new thing, getting to work with the Mark Allen Everett poetry series. I love getting to collaborate with them in a way that allows us to both merge that poetry, the two poetry readings that we have sometimes. And also at strategic times, choose not to merge it so that we have more poetry on offer in Norman. we also have there's another poetry reading at the depot that is run by Paul Austin, who is spectacular. He he does this really interesting thing where he has three poets line up and they do a set, a set, a set. Like they do it together. They do a set together and then they rest and they do a set together. It's not one, one, one, it's a couple of poems each, but they do it kind of in response to each other. And it's a really interesting having three poets in particular and working together is a very interesting poetry reading. So kind of we've worked together to make sure that during Slow Times and Norman. Summers are slow times in a university town. During slow times, we collaborate a lot. We we pull a lot of that, those resources together so that we can all be at the same events. And during the school year, we make sure that There are more events, fewer crossover. We try to schedule things around each other and that kind of thing, which is super fun. We have a poetry discussion group the Wednesdays before our poetry readings. So twice a week, twice a month, we sit down on a Wednesday and meet poetry cold. It's the best book club ever because there's no homework. You get to show up,

 

Tim: You

 

Heather Hall: you get to drink wine, you get to read poems with people who are at a variety of experience levels with poetry. So from people who have literally never read a poem ever to people with advanced degrees in the subject. So we have a variety of, you know, experience levels, all reading the same poetry and all reacting in the same ways and all noticing the same alliterations and the different levels of language to articulate what it is that just punched us in the gut. Which is very cool.

 

Tim: Greenfeather Books, rather demonstrably, has taken a leading role in Banned Book Week, countering the imposition of restrictions. How has the larger community responded to your efforts, and what does that response say about Norman as a literary center?

 

Heather Hall: So I the way that happened was kismet. It just was like meant to happen, I guess, in the way that it happened. like who knew I was gonna be the one opening a bookstore at a time when we were gonna lose a high school teacher because of sharing the QR code to the Brooklyn Public Library's books unbanned program. it largely my community has been super supportive. like super supportive. one of the primary reasons that we kind of got all mixed into the middle of that is that initially I was a parent working with other parents, putting together t shirts that were gonna go what we were gonna give to students Because we were told, our teachers were told they could not share this banned books week sort of free library card, like digital library card that kids could get. And and we all acknowledge that the school system is allowed to say that to our teachers. But kind of the response internally was we'll be good goddamned if they tell our kids they can't share that information. and so we participated in this project, and we were the easiest centrally located place for people to come and pick things up. So rather than having parents

 

Tim: you

 

Heather Hall: who had full time jobs trying to drive t-shirts around to other places. We just left them at the store and let people come and and pick them up at the store initially. and the store at the store we were already making buttons, like like little, you know, punk rock do-it-yourself buttons. where we were literally just printing a one inch QR code. and we just so we were making those and giving them out too. My kids immediately went to school, went to middle school with the QR code. And largely the response has been very, very, very supportive. Some of it has been circumstantial support supporting in that they want to participate in this kind of parents thing, having their kids have these t shirts. But so they were coming to the store to get them because that was the easiest way to make that happen. But some of it like it it it went deeper than that. I had people calling me, first of all, from all over the country, saying, thank you for doing what you're doing. Which always feels very odd. It feels very awkward to me because I wouldn't I couldn't think of doing anything else. I considered doing something else. Like I am opening a business. I am starting a business. And at no point did I assume that I should broadcast my politics as part of that business. Right. I I am I live in a a state that is the buckle of the Bible belt. And at no point did I assume that broadcasting my politics would be beneficial. To my business. I assumed that I would need to kind of dial that back on the surface at least. But it turns out someone out there has made reading political. It shouldn't be. It wasn't when I was growing up. When I was growing up, the library had banned books week every year, celebrated banned books week every year to articulate how terrifying and how problematic it was to limit. access to ideas. But in 2022, my hometown public library did not participate. There was no, there was no table. The librarians were not supposed to talk or direct people to specific books that were known banned books. They could refer people to the ALA website and that was it. it made it Important for me to talk about as the

 

Tim: you

 

Heather Hall: only person. Like at some point, you're like, this is literally my business. If they bring the pull the books from the libraries, they're likely to pull the books from us. We got to stop it someplace. Anyway, so the impetus to do that was there. I did not anticipate it being helpful for my business, but it opened up some really big opportunities for me as a bookseller and as a business owner. I got to speak at the American Booksellers Association. Winter Institute in Seattle. and I got to sit on a panel with Maya Kobe, I got to make a connection with Maya, and that connection has lasted throughout the years. That itself has been a hugely significant boon to my at least my my well-being as a bookseller. I also got to go to the Rise Bookselling Conference in Portugal and talk about bookselling with Europeans. I will say that we have very different language for or our link we use the same language for very different things. When in France they're talking about a book ban, they're talking about actually not available. They're talking about actually functionally no longer available even at the retail level. In some cases, they're talking about a law requiring books not to be available to anyone under the age of 18, underage. And if you know anything about France, you know it's not that big of a deal to walk into a restaurant and order a glass of wine. They can order a glass of wine, but they can't buy a book that's intended for middle graders. like there are instances of book banning that are far more deep and cutting than the book banning that we're trying. And we we have been very alarmed by book banning in in the states, by book be books being pulled from school libraries and from community libraries. But if you're comparing the two, one is not available for for free, the other one is not available at all. And and it made me feel very hopeful about the future at a time when the not so hopeful. at every step you just take the opportunities that kind of are there. And being in the mid big middle of all of that has allowed me some opportunities to connect outside of our community. Which has also allowed me to bring things into our community from outside, which is cool. Like the people who come in, it's so sweet because people will come in and they'll say, you know, what do we need to do? Like what does the little book board look like? Because we have a book board that shows How many books we need to sell every month in order to just keep the lights on, right? just to break even, this is how many books we need to sell. We have one of those. And what how many books do we need to do we need to sell this month? or can't what what books do you are you looking for that I can donate? Or, you know, any any number of things that people are trying to do, people from my literally our neighborhood, Central Norman, walkable. They walk up to my bookstore and they're like, What can we do to make sure that everything is going well? And to me that means I'm doing the right thing.

 

Tim: you're a Chickasaw citizen.

 

Heather Hall: I am.

 

Tim: Do you find your indigenous heritage informs your response to the attempts at silencing writers and artists?

 

Heather Hall: It does. in some ways it does in sort of a rye, there's a wry humor element to my my deeply held responses to this stuff, which is of course we would try to silence that that author. Of course

 

Tim: Mm-hmm.

 

Heather Hall: we would try to, you know, there's sort of a wry, like deep humor involved with almost everything that I with almost everything native even the horror there's like a deep humor involved in in every element of survival I will say so yes it does particularly when when the book bannings first like when I was first aware like in 2022 I'm I'm very busy my plate she is full because I am planning to open a business and I think the first thing that we heard about in Oklahoma was that there was a a school in I think the Tulsa area that had purchased a bunch of copies of Killers of the Flower Moon. They had they

 

Tim: okay, yeah.

 

Heather Hall: had they had received a grant to buy a block of, you know, I don't know how we're gonna say a hundred copies. I don't remember how many copies it was, but a block of copies and they were going to do a large like reading kind of assignment with all of the students of that library reading This particular book. and that they were having to put it away because they weren't allowed to read it, because it depicted white people as problematic. and I think it was the first time I ever perceived a true identifying whiteness with colonizing. Like you knew is an ancillary fact that colonizers in Oklahoma, I mean in the US and Oklahoma in particular, if you assume whiteness is a culture, identifying that culture with colonization was such a like, first of all, it was a unique. Thing to realize that that's something that people really identify with. and feel ashamed or hurt when you talk about how problematic and hurtful it was to all the people who actually existed here before people came over.

 

Tim: you

 

Heather Hall: So that was kind of an interesting realization. and also it was largely native voices that were being silenced in Oklahoma, at least, because. When you're talking about black and brown folks, many, many, many of the black and brown folks in Oklahoma are native or have have deep connections to native tribes. and I so as a native person, like that's always kind of the first place I come from. I was raised in Chickasaw culture as a Chickasaw person by Chickasaw people. And so that's always the kind of that first perspective. And realizing how much that was impacting Native folks made me very aware of myself as a Native bookseller. I started this as a person who liked to read books and who enjoys stories. But anytime you take on this role, you find yourself delving deeper into the whys and the wherefores and all of the things about why why it is that you are the way that you are. I was raised in part by a grandfather who was a storyteller for the Chickasaw Nation. And those stories were critical. A critical part of my upbringing. I am have the unique perspective as someone who got to sit at his knee listening to his stories and at the knee of his uncle uncle Sun, who also was telling stories about our clan in the Chickasaw Nation. Clan information is very rare these days. Dos Rolls for sure decimated most clans and clan systems in the state of Oklahoma. Most tribes, in most tribes, most modern tribal members are not aware of where their family clan came from or where they descend from. And that's how stories were passed on. clan information, your stories were passed down within clans matrilineally. So the stories that my gramps used to tell, the stories that Don Moody used to tell are very different than the stories that my cousins who are from matrilineal descendancy would tell. one of the things that I have realized about myself is that storytelling has always been sacred. Yeah, to me. Like that's probably the strongest theme in my life is that storytelling and storytellers by the act that they are doing, they are keeping oral tradition alive. in native circles, they are keeping oral tradition. My grand was keeping an oral tradition alive that had existed for many, many generations. He was telling the same stories that had been told for many generations, passed down. father to son in that case because he came came from a very strong patrilineal descendancy. but the way stories are handed down, it makes sense to me the way that my books, my book story is even divided. Almost it's not divided by gender, but there are patrilineal stories and there are matrilineal stories. Patrilineal stories tend to be political stories and war stories and how did we survive stories? And matrilineal stories tend to be the stories about what made us who we were. They tend to be the stories that have more philosophy and culture and deep knowledge about the world around us and our our interconnectedness to the world around us. and you can see that bear out even in in the way that. My bookstore is divided and where I where you decide to place books. It in it informs everything. about the way Norman and the the literary fibers of Norman and the way they kind of intersect through the ages? This

 

Tim: Mm-hmm.

 

Heather Hall: is kind of a random story and involves family history as well. My mom worked for OU Press when I before I was born. My mom was diagnosed, and I'm telling you this because it it's is a it stands out. When someone tells you this, it it stands out. My mom was diagnosed with pregnancy and cancer in the same doctor visit. So she was diagnosed with me and cancer at the same time. And that's been a theme in my in my life. She survived for 30 odd more years. And but that's been a it was a theme in my childhood and my growing up for a long, long time. and I heard stories from family and I heard stories from friends, but She was working at the University of Oklahoma Press at one of our very first poetry readings. a woman named Sarah came. in our discussion, I discovered that Sarah had also worked for the University of Oklahoma Press. And and I asked when. And she mentioned

 

Tim: you

 

Heather Hall: the years. And I said, did you know Katie Moody or Kathleen Moody? And she said, Yes, we were desk partners. They they had shared a desk. And I was like, So I am. I am the kid she was diagnosed with, along with cancer. And she goes, my God, like it was an my God, like we were desk partners when she was diagnosed. She was using OU health insurance, University of Oklahoma Press health insurance to go to the doctor to get diagnosed. And Sarah had been super active in the 70s and 80s in publishing Native American poetry. Like they had been they had a small independent press and they'd been publishing all of this poetry from people that I know. Right, that I have met at poetry readings over the years. Richard Ray Whitman, who is an actor and a poet and a writer and a filmmaker and all kinds of different things, who I met at poetry readings many, many years ago, was one of the authors in some of these poetry books. And she said, I have a garage full of poetry books. Can I bring some to you? And I was like, Are you kidding me? Like

 

Tim: Heh.

 

Heather Hall: So I am the un like I I am uniquely blessed in that I have this connection to this woman who participated in all of the things that OU Press was doing. through my mother, I have this connection to her and also to this other small publishing press that was publishing unique voices in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. and I I'm the beneficiary of some of those. We get to have those. We're the only place you can buy them in many cases. And that's the kind of thing that an I like I can't listen, a big box store could not connect with this woman in this way. A big box store

 

Tim: yeah

 

Heather Hall: could not make those and wouldn't have the space to figure out how to bring it in as inventory anyway. So I get to connect

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Heather Hall: those things to the descendants of the actual poets and in some cases to the actual poets. We had Lance Henson come in and do a reading. He is an internationally renowned poet. who is Cheyenne Arapahoe. And he ended up just telling stories. He ended up doing the classic like storyteller thing where he sat and just told stories, and we sat and like, like, nobody blinked. It just was we and we've

 

Tim: Mm-hmm.

 

Heather Hall: had a number of those kind of remarkable moments where it's like the perfect crystallization of everything that we are and that Norman is, and that. exit the where we're connected to the outside world. It's awesome.

 

Tim: you have written, each Indigenous voice is a miracle. So for what miracles should the reading community look out today and in the coming years? And additionally, across what genres? Because you've noted that there is a diversity of writing within the Indigenous community.

 

Heather Hall: Yes. I I am gonna say we should be looking out for more indigenous romance, like actual indigenous romance without Savage in the title. Cause that's never gonna happen with an indigenous written romance. Danica Nava published the very first traditionally published indigenous rom com, The Truth according to Ember, that came out two years ago, in August. We got to launch that. She is a Chickasaw author published by Penguin Random House or Berkeley, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House. And it was a big deal as a as a Chickasaw bookseller, getting to sell a Chickasaw author and and words within this book. Are like the native language, like the Chickasaw language is in this book. So getting to hear someone pronounce Chokmashki almost exactly perfectly. Like Chokmashki is thank you in Chickashinumpa. It's one that I use a lot. With the glottal stop in the correct spot and everything like that's amazing. Like that is a miracle. That is a miracle in and of itself. So we should be looking for the miracle of indigenous voices in romance. we also have Scarlett St. Clair, who is a Muscog I believe she's Muscogee Creek. Her books are not themed around Muscogee Creek culture, but she is a Muscogee Creek author and brings everything that that means that that is into her writing. we should definitely keep an eye out for more indigenous horror. Like there's nothing, there's not a genre that fits better with indigenous storytelling than horror, like to be honest with you. look out for more indigenous scholarship. Like that's the other thing. Devin Mihisua is an Indigenous scholar writing about indigenous histories and culture. And and the perspective that is being given to indigenous histories by Indigenous authors is so unique. I I think that look for those perspectives in every single genre. I'm also seeing an uptick of native authors in mystery and suspense, which is super exciting.

 

Tim: you have served as a judge with the National Book Award Foundation as a lifelong Normanite. Did you bring anything specific from your hometown with you into your role and relatedly has that experience altered your sense of Norman?

 

Heather Hall: I I absolutely did. I will say that it was a an enormous honor to serve as a judge for the National Book Award. And the way the National Book Award is run is genuine. And I have judged for the Oklahoma Book Award, I've judged for the Reading the West Award and the National Book Award. all three of those. The way the National Book is book award is run is there is a reason why the National Book Award is so prestigious. I was on a I was on a panel of five judges, every other one of which had won a Pulitzer Prize, had won a National Book Award, was an award-winning economist, trained at Cambridge. Like I it was a very prestigious panel to be on. And I was very aware going in that I am the equivalent of the punk rock bookseller here. and it's sort of how I introduced myself. Like I have read all of your bias, they're all terribly impressive. I am I am just a bookstore owner in Norman, Oklahoma. And that was that's not to denigrate being a bookstore in Norman, Oklahoma at all, but it's just awareness of the outside world and how prestigious some of these folks were. I will say that the ability, if when you write enough that you speak the way that you write instead of you write the way that you speak, that's an impressive moment. Like that's a writer. And

 

Tim: Thanks.

 

Heather Hall: there were a couple of those on the panel with me. I here's what I brought from Oklahoma. I brought a perspective on Indian country, which is a legal term term of art in case anybody has any issues with me calling Indian country. Indian country is a actually a legal term that refers to an area that many, many, many tribes were shipped off to to get them out of the way of colonization. and because we were kind of compressed and and and and put in a smaller, much smaller landmass than we would normally have had between tribes. There's been, there's there's we are Indian country today. Like that has built the Indian country that exists today. And the perspective of all of the different tribes that are in Oklahoma and their various governments and and in some cases courts and all of us coming to understand the vast impact of the McGurt decision, the Supreme Court decision, I got to bring some of the impact of that on Oklahoma to the conversations that we were having because we were judging non for nonfiction. when you're judging for nonfiction, you're reading a lot that is you're reading a lot of history, you're reading a lot of different things. There were several things where I could bring an an indigenous perspective to, which is to me an Oklahoman perspective to that didn't exist elsewhere on the panel. It was really cool. It was really interesting. I also got to bring the bookseller perspective, which is to say, There were several books that were awesome. Like the research was awesome, the conversations that were going to happen as a result of these books, awesome, but the books themselves had not risen yet to the level of writing and storytelling that really deserves a national book award, right? It's being able to say, like, this is Like very academic and being able to be kind of the non academic in a very accomplished academic group to say, This has huge academic importance, but it does not have huge, like like the average person is not going to read this book, is not going to read past the intro of this book because it is not written in a way that invites the average person to enjoy the story. So that was a perspective that did not otherwise exist. And that I think that was really important to me to be able to bring that. The everyday person perspective, which I think was also important.

 

Tim: As Heather noted, Greenfeather Books is a host of the Mark Allen Everett Poetry Series, which since two thousand seven has brought to Norman esteemed contemporary poets, Names such as Arthur Z, Joy Hartrow, and many others. The poetry series is co-directed by Dr. Todd Fuller and Dr. Craig Hill, professors at the University of Oklahoma. Their union not only has amplified this one initiative, but also has produced several meaningful collaborations, with even more on the horizon. Craig, could you please tell us about the Mark Allen Everett Poetry series, including its origin, the programmatic offerings, and its impact. And what do you believe the series means to Norman's literary identity?

 

Crag Hill: So the Mark Allen Everett Poetry Reading Series at the University of Oklahoma in Norman was co-founded twenty two thousand seven. So we're gonna have our twentieth anniversary this spring by Jonathan

 

Todd Fuller: Next.

 

Crag Hill: Stalling and Nancy Yacht, and is sponsored by the Evert Family Fund and OU's College of Arts and Sciences. During its first two years, the series was co-directed by Honore Jeffers and Janetta Calhoun Mish, who is now director emeritus of the series. Todd and I have been co-curators with Jonathan since 2014, and Timothy Bradford joined us in 2019. In our 10-year plus tenure, Todd and I have booked poets from Norman and from around the state, as well as poets from surrounding states, to showcase a range of poetries for our audience. We also have had the budget to bring in nationally recognized poets from around the country, e.g., Natalie Diaz from California, Joey Harjo from New Mexico. And Arthur Z. Jonathan for a number of years brought in poets from China as well. A conservative estimate of how many poets we've brought to Norman in the last twelve years is more than 120. Some poets returning from afar for a

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Crag Hill: second time, e.g., Alex Dickau coming back from Virginia Tech. The sheer volume and variety of poets we've invited to Norman marks the series arguably as a central hub of Norman's literary identity. And now in conjunction with the epic reading series at Greenfeather Books every second and fourth Friday, that hub has become even more integral to the community. A Green Feather reading begins with a featured reader reading for twenty five to thirty minutes, followed by a vigorous open mic where many nights a fledgling writer reads their work for the first time in front of an audience.

 

Tim: Todd, the series draws poets from locations not dissimilar from Norman, such as Tim Lance from Lawrence, Kansas, do you see any place-based unifying themes emerge among these artists? And does this perspective relate to what you captured in your book, Level Land?

 

Todd Fuller: Thanks, Tim. yeah, level land. that was a that's a collaboration we took on as a result of trying to connect art and artists along the I thirty five corridor. 'cause from you know, from Thunder Bay, Canada to Mexico City, that that road is is unified. I mean it's it's it goes from those locations and all across, the sort of the continental spine of the of the US. and what we realized is that with its college, industrial, and agricultural towns and that's all along the road, or not too far from it, we recognize the immensity and power of place meeting life and movement in many locations with many readers that that people consider flyover country, which

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Todd Fuller: is why we kind of chose the imagery that we did for the art and that that these that these factors were what was unifying the the poems included in the in the the anthology actually is the diversity not only of of place and space, but but the diversity of language too. Could where we have Kiowa poems living besides beside Spanish translation poems and of course many English language poems

 

Tim: Here, we're gonna

 

Todd Fuller: too. And that it's such a powerful thing that speaks to the layers of cultural complexities in abundance above, on, and below the land in the northern and southern plains, right? And

 

Tim: You

 

Todd Fuller: so that's one reason why the the the anthology was so exciting. And and and any number of poets included in the anthology have actually read for

 

Tim: Ai, me louk, I look.

 

Todd Fuller: the poetry series. Right. And so For the the series, we look for poets whose work speak to us individually first. And from there, we relationship build, we start dialogue, we seek to create a platform and a place for poets and their work to shine. typically we get fifteen to thirty people at any single reading, and have also had 75 to 100

 

Tim: He

 

Todd Fuller: at larger readings with multiple authors, and our poets

 

Tim: Mm-hmm.

 

Todd Fuller: typically stay one or more nights at a local B and B, engage in other events more times during a semester.

 

Tim: the series attracts poets from locations quite distant and different from Norman. and how have those writers come to view the city through this experience?

 

Crag Hill: I think it's fair to say that many of the writers come to Norman to Oklahoma for the first time are surprised by the energy and the receptivity of the poetry scene here. Our audience really shows up engaging with poets long after a reading is over, often over a drink and meal at Blue, a downtown restaurant. And the audience really does possess a curiosity for all kinds of poetry. There's n there's not just one poetry in in Norman. From the sound poetry of Diap Blanc, who comes to came to us from the Netherlands, to the eclectic poetries

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Crag Hill: of Pierre Joris, dom no nomadic polylingual poet, editor, anthologist, and translator, to Sai Howaz Comanche Gothic. The conversations between community members and teacher poets can last for hours, even longer in some cases. We had a poet who came to us from The Bronx. He lives in the Bronx. He has family in London and Dublin. So World World Traveler, he'd never come to Oklahoma and he was absolutely fascinated by not only Norman, but we took him to the Wichita refuge he he just really loved it. So and we'll have to get him back.

 

Tim: Also. prior to collaborating on the series, you co created the exhibition Red Dust Oklahoma, a poetic history, which examined the history of Oklahoma's poetry from pre school. Statehood to 1941. So two questions, one about process and one about content. How do you complement one another when working on such a project? And what elements contribute to Oklahoma's richness as a subject and resource for poetry?

 

Todd Fuller: Okay, so one of the one of the beautiful things about collaborating with with Craig is is he he he had had he had had previous collaborations and and I really had not. And so when we started getting together, we we we sat down with our computers at the at the Western History Collections, which is where I'm curator now, and we we opened up our laptops and started reading the individual poems and we were reading them at the same time. And once we got done, then we'd start sharing back and forth you know, what what we thought. Sometimes we were doing it with hard copies. We'd talk about craft, we'd talk about strengths, weaknesses, challenges, merits, what is working well, what's not, every every bit of poetry stuff that that stuck with us while while reading the poem, we would talk about these things. And it was just an absolutely for me a wonderful way with just he and I to sit down with the work and it's just us and it's unfiltered. And we, you know, we just got to embrace that work. Now it was it was kind of tough at first. We had to we had to figure out that we were probably

 

Crag Hill: I'm gonna do it again.

 

Todd Fuller: overlaying our contemporary critical biases on top of these these period pieces. And that we needed to actually not do that and meet these pieces at their place, at their time with what they were doing, right? And so so the critical moment during which the point itself

 

Crag Hill: What?

 

Todd Fuller: was written of that that moment. And so once we did that, once we got to the poem on its own terms, then meeting the poets and their work and not necessarily working for Oklahoma's William Carlos Williams. When we did that, we became transformed readers and evaluators. And that's when we became absolutely as mamazed.

 

Crag Hill: I I I wanna add that I think neither neither Todd or I had had archival research experience. So the way I've d described it to people, initially we were the keystone cops of archival research. you know, we do simple

 

Tim: Ha ha ha

 

Todd Fuller: Yes.

 

Crag Hill: things like noting, you know, citations, page numbers, things like that. So for the exhibit we had

 

Todd Fuller: my god.

 

Crag Hill: to go back. We had to spend hours to go back.

 

Todd Fuller: Mm-hmm.

 

Crag Hill: relocate the things that we did. we were just handing the mostly the Harlow's Weekly to get it copied from the people working there and not taking very very good notes. I'd say now though we're we're pretty good archival researchers. but that was a fun experience. There was more than one aha moment

 

Todd Fuller: to give you some names, Tim, like Florence Cobb, who is a

 

Tim: yeah.

 

Todd Fuller: was her she was a probate attorney from Connecticut, who moved out to Oklahoma, got married here, was actually the first woman in Connecticut to pass the bar, and then then came out here and started as a probate attorney for the Seminole Nation in Woka, Oklahoma. And so she witnessed the eruption of the Wawoka oil field. When oil was discovered there and it became an oil town with over 10,000 people overnight, all the degradation that came with that. Well, she became known as as the Oklahoma oil-filled poet. She started writing all of these social justice poems about the exploitation of the oil industry d against people and against women, especially, and what they would endure as a result of of going through this experience, right? Of of the extractive industries, not only sucking life out of the land, but sucking life out of the people who were trying to make a living on top of the land. And she did that masterfully. And the first time that Craig and I sat down and started passing her poems back and forth, we just sat there and every time we're like, holy hell, my God, this is amazing. How have we never heard of Florence Cobb? Where is her poetry collection?

 

Crag Hill: And yeah, and it really really hit home when we we have fourteen of her poems. We b b have part of many projects. When we read all those through, she was a masterful poet. We've been trying to see if she has any papers anywhere. because it it was said somewhere that she published dozens of poems. and if the as good as those fourteen are, you know, if there's fourteen more, there's a book. It should be a Florence cop book.

 

Todd Fuller: Right. And the the the wonderful thing about that, Flo

 

Tim: do.

 

Todd Fuller: Florence Cobb is one of dozens of poets we could have picked to talk about in this way. There's Winnie Lewis Grabbitt, there's Ruth Muskrat Bronson, there's of course Lynn Riggs, there's there's Don Blanding, there's Maureen Halliburton McGee, Patsy Truscott, a lot of of female poets, in part because we're actually working on a book that's getting ready to get published by the University of Oklahoma Press about women poets of Oklahoma who never publish single-author collections. So the women poets are fresh in our minds, but but the the spectrum is is amazing of the number of poets. We did not expect to find both of us with PhDs in English. And not knowing hardly any of these poets except for Lynn Riggs. We knew about We'd heard of Lynn Riggs, for different reasons. but most of the other poets had never heard of. So we were absolutely stunned and amazed, and that's what the exhibition gave us. Right? The exhibition gave us a a in an inroad to multiple other projects that we realized we wanted to explore the history of Oklahoma poetry and how rich it is. And how not only how rich it was, but how rich it is right now and and what's going on now, right? And obviously we're bringing these two things together with with the historical projects and with the poetry series.

 

Tim: Craig, your scholarship focuses on young adult literature. Does the community of Norman, your students, your colleagues, the citizens, the places, shape this area of your work?

 

Crag Hill: Yeah, most certainly. in my role as a teacher educator, teaching teachers to teach writing literature, secondary future secondary English teachers, I'm graced with a yearly course called Teaching Literature in Middle and High Schools, in which I can share the literature I've been researching. Students read a book a week in the semester, so twelve to fourteen. One four week unit of that course is usually dedicated to reading novels by indigenous authors from our region. E.G. Brandon Hobson's The Removed, set in Tallaquah, Northeastern Oklahoma. Oscar Hokia's Calling for a Blanket Dance, set in Lawton, the southwest corner of of Oklahoma. And Cynthia Leidich Smith's Hearts Unbroken. the main character is from Oklahoma, but it's actually taking place in Lawrence, Kansas, a little bit to the north of us. and we also will read Rilla Askew's essays in Most American Notes from a Wounded Place that I'll use again. I'll be teaching in the honors college this year. I'll be de doing a course on poetics, the poetics of place, and then one on adolescence and for the poetics of place. Rilla's Most American Notes from Ruined Place will be a a key key book. She makes to me a convincing argument that Oklahoma The good and the bad all put together is is the most American state. so see see what our honor students

 

Tim: a hard it's a lot it's too hard.

 

Todd Fuller: Mm.

 

Crag Hill: think about that. I really

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Crag Hill: really think it's important that the pre service teachers realize that there's a lot of great literature being being written now about Oklahoma. They're always sort of surprised that there's there's a published there's a published novel. Oklahoma. I I I'm just surprised that the our In the English majors they're surprised when they hear that that you know Rilla Askew is a nationally known writer. So it's an honor to be the one to introduce them to literature from their own place.

 

Todd Fuller: a couple of things there. one, I held up this Angie Deboe book because I think it's in this book where she says that's where Rilla Rilla talks about Oklahoma being sort of this this microcosm of of the rest of the country. And it was Angie Deboe in this book who first suggested that.

 

Crag Hill: okay. I didn't know that. Yeah.

 

Todd Fuller: that that that Oklahoma because of the convergence of well, because of the timing, but then because of the convergence of the various peoples who were meeting, whether they wanted to or not, in this place in Indian territory and Oklahoma territories, you you had this fermentation of place, people, and situations that were that were absolutely brand new and strange and unusual. And out of these, out of these, these clashes came these a mere amazing literatures and amazing inventions and amazing writers like like Alex Posey and like

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Todd Fuller: like John Roland Ridge like Lynn Riggs like of course Ruth Muskrat Bronson all the all these native writers that happen too and and the it's just it it's amazing to me that That more people don't sort of understand Oklahoma as this amazing continental hinge because of the history that's here, and because of of all that's that's happened. and

 

Tim: Mm-hmm.

 

Todd Fuller: it it it did at one point represent all that was sort of the stereotypic old West, while at the same time everything that was sort of the stereotypic pioneer happenings and the front the farmer settlement of of the land and all of that. With with a on top of a land of displaced people, right? And I'm not talking just about the indigenous population, also the slaves who were brought here by the tribes, And those overlays are absolutely unique, And and so that's that's and and I I you know I just wanted to add that because Because I think that's what part of what makes the the literature so special too. Because even though people might not be writing about this constantly in their work, it's percolating there. It's there. It informs. That's part of what informs the place too, Because this this all has happened here. And it's it's there's still so much to learn and understand about it,

 

Tim: Todd, your research explores the evolution of poetry in the region. in what era does Norman's poetry presently find itself? And what do you see as influences, political, cultural, economic, on the poetry coming? from the area at this moment.

 

Todd Fuller: I think I think the present day the present day work that's happening very much echoes sort of the inception period before the bursting forth of all the Oklahoma Manor activities that that started in the the the twenties and thirties, that that were sort of there with the poets who were all around us and doing what they're doing and making their explorations about all that's going on. especially at this moment in time and there are these critiques that are happening and social justice that's that's occurring and a concern of civil rights and people and humanity and that that you know how how are we getting through this? What does all this mean and reflecting it in in poetry in in really amazing ways. And so I think I think that's that's part of what's going on. We have poets all over the state going to poetry readings in different places and and s and they're going to celebrations. in towns like Drumright and Ada and Okima, Durant, and go into festivals in Tulsa and Oklahoma City and different universities and people across the state are embracing the power of words and the the stories that those those words, you know, are trying to tell. I know I think the creative work in d indigenous artists is especially significant and illuminating. Like many authors, musicians, filmmakers, bead workers. even even culinary, you know, artists, chefs, the w their work is is stunning. Like indigenous artists are doing amazing stuff unparalleled anywhere in the country at these numbers. and especially when considering the cultural range of the tribes in present day Oklahoma. So I think the indigenous artists are just have have done amazing things, you know, and not surprisingly either. And so to me, the the convergences and intersections of people, personal circumstances, economies, politics, cultural fluidities, and histories allow for the fermentation and manifestations of absolutely unique, even kaleidoscopic creative manifestations across multiple modes of expression, right? Poetry, fiction, drama, various genres of music, and all the visual arts, it's just sort of across the board. that these things are happening. And in some ways, this is very much kind of of an Oklahoma tradition, right? Whether you're coming from a native tradition or you're coming from you know kind of a pioneer tradition or or some other tradition that rises up out of Oklahoma, it's it's something that has converged here and that now we get the we get this moment to reflect on. And so it's our job to to do that and and it's our job to get to get the to get those words out to to others, and and celebrate creativity at that level.

 

Tim: Craig, you recently released Every Cell Lit Up with spontaneous Bob through Norman's Damn Publishing. could you share more about the work and what does it say about Norman to have generated something so original?

 

Crag Hill: So Tim, thank you for the compliment, but originality is a relative term. Every cell lit up the pairing of image and text text with a goal of synergy has been part of my poetics since the nineteen eighties, you know, starting in San Francisco, when my work in the field of visual poetry began in earnest. That's not to say that the collaboration with Spontaneous Bob has not been an eye opener for the Norman poetry community, as evidenced by the delight the audience showed during and after. the book launch at Green Feather but this work isn't even new to Norman. Frank Parman, poet, artist and publisher for one, curated concrete visual poetry exhibits in the area. Which included at least one visit from Rich Kostolanitz,

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Crag Hill: One of the leading promoters of visual poetic studying the latent late nineteen sixties. Norman has been a vibrant, forward looking community for over a hundred years. Every cell lit up is grateful to be part of that tradition. So we project Bob's images while I read the five-line poems. They're I in twenty twenty-three I wrote a couplet every day, I I wrote a terset every day, not not combining them in any way, letting them live on their own. And then I then I built at one time were 80 of these poems. but then when Bob and I started to talk about a box idea, I said, Well, it should be fifty-two. So I edit it down. It's fifty-two. five line poems on one side and on the other side are his graphics. and we just stumbled on this idea. He was in he was in a group show at Main Site Gallery and he had three images and they reminded me of the five line poems so I said, you know, Bob there's your images. I've got some poems that can go with that

 

Tim: Todd, your poem Pasternac in Oklahoma appeared in World Literature Today. the following lines stand out. Between here and there is the expanse of living. It's where the rainstorm releases itself to soak all that is parched. Could one find in those words understanding of Norman and its relationship with literature?

 

Todd Fuller: I I think eventually, you know, we we get there, but but initially for for me the poem was really a mimetic piece in commemoration of of Pasternak's struggles and what he was going through and what he was experiencing at the end of his life as a prisoner in his own house in in the Soviet Union. and I think from that gaze, I alco also thought about the person who connected me to a Pasternak, and that was an OU former OU student named Ron Jones, who graduated from OU in the nineteen fifties, not long after Pasternak published Dr. Chivago. well Ron was writing to Pasternak and asked him about the various symbols and meanings because Ron had a girlfriend who was absolutely obsessed with the book. So Ron's

 

Tim: Ha ha

 

Todd Fuller: interest was was not just intellectual okay he He also, I think, had some some other motives for why he was he was curious. Well, he wrote this letter to Pasternak, and Pasternak answered him. he responded back with a handwritten letter to Ron's questions. and and it was an absolutely eloquent letter. We now have the letter at the Western History Collections, it's part of our our holdings. and you know, Ron was stunned, there w FBI got involved and all kinds of other kind of crazy stuff happened. but but the the whole Pasternak letter and the the poem sort of represents you know some of Oklahoma going out and and and and in these ways coming back in very unexpected ways and i it it shows this this universe of Of Oklahoma having a kind of centrality to so many narratives, even at a t at at a time you know, connecting to the Soviet Union during, you know, the height of the Cold War and Pasternak not being allowed to receive his Nobel Prize and and sort of all those things. In the middle of all that, there's an Oki who is who's writing to Pasternak, who's writing him back and engaging with him in conversation. This is very much an Oklahoma kind of thing to do. Right. And so we have this example. And and the crazy thing about Ron is that Ron is connected to so many other sort of notable figures too, such as Elvis. He saw Elvis at a at a honky talk in Lauden in 1955. He saw Mario and Dreddy, he met the Clintons, he knows Condoleezza Rice, he's met George

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Todd Fuller: Bush and and many others. and so so from from those shared places, the piece was created that finds a southern plains intersection with an origin point in Soviet politics of the nineteen fifties. and certainly the imagery of a parched land applies literally and metaphorically to each place, to each time and to to the narratives. You know, the hope inherent in a good soaking rainfall refreshes the land and all its inhabitants, to be sure.

 

Tim: What does the future hold for each of you individually, for the series and for Norman's literary scene?

 

Crag Hill: f first Todd, I just want to talk about you know I-35 was a proof of concept. Todd and I actually imagined eight inner interstate highways anthologies. I-5, I-80, I I-95 with we mapped out eight of them. So I-35 was the first one. I-40 started quickly, but we had two co-editors who got busy doing other things, so it's sort of I hit the shelf. But we we are gonna be teaming up with Quinn Carver Johnson, a poet who works at the Bob Dylan Center, maybe the Woody Guthrie Center. He does something there. He's

 

Todd Fuller: Mm. Yeah.

 

Crag Hill: joining us. and and so this will be from North Carolina to California. So that's that's a that's a project I hope to

 

Tim: Okay.

 

Crag Hill: get going just because of the I I'd still like to see these eight. I had some people in mind who could be doing the the I five, some some poets I know from Portland. so

 

Todd Fuller: Well dare we say, Crack, that like here on this space that we'd like to put out a call for for volume editors for those different series. you know,

 

Tim: Yes.

 

Todd Fuller: I don't we've we've got a call that's been drafted. you know, we we would like to Get on with this anthology project, the interstate anthology project. When it comes together, it's going to be an a complete national anthology, right? Through place-based kinds of material, thoughts, and impulses, you know. And I think we need to keep place at the center of our minds and hearts in such perilous times, and and we've got other projects too. I mean, as far as c as as Craig and I as collaborators, we want to do an Indigenous Dust project project that would be the would be a bringing together of of Oklahoma native poets since eighteen thirty, to the present moment. We we very much want to move forward with a a book proposal to appropriate presses with that project. We also have a project university dust that would be a focus of the University of Oklahoma's poets that have have

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Todd Fuller: been here. And there have been dozens of amazing, amazing writers who've who've come and gone at at

 

Tim: Yeah.

 

Todd Fuller: OU. And so we think a a collection is warranted there too, as well as a a collection, and this is going back to Florence Cobb, collection of that we'd like to call crude dust. that focuses on poems on on the oil industry and other extractive industries. and so that's a sort of our collaborative plate, you know, the interstate and and all of these other other sort of exhibition-based projects that that came out of that first work.

 

Tim: As mentioned, Crag Hill teamed on Every Cell Lit Up with Spontaneous Bob, who presently holds the designation as Norman's poet laureate, an acknowledgement of the city's appreciation for the art form and for his individual contributions. Spontaneous Bob has woven himself into Norman's poetry and spoken word fabric for over two decades, delivering a singular blend of artistic expression. you are Norman's poet laureate. What what do you believe this designation says about the city's literary scene today? And do you ever view your writing and poetry in the context of Norman's history?

 

spontaneous bob: wow, okay. I am Norman's second ever poet laureate, so it's pretty new thing. And we are one of I think four cities in the country that have their own poet laureate. I mean st all the states do, and then the other's the national. But I think I think there were I last I read it were four different cities that actually have a poet laureate. So that to me says that we're embracing poetry more than we have in the past for sure. And this Position is is is it's moved forward. It's growing. It's a new it's a new process. We're learning. Norman is I I think I've been you know always been a very forward thinking. When I was a kid, this is where I came for poetry readings. Like literally my mother would drop me off at poetry readings in a city that we didn't live in, and I would sit in a coffee shop with random strangers, and then my mother would pick me up later. So I mean, as far as the history of Norman's poetry, that's part of it too, I guess, is is I kind of grew up in this little scene and then I come very much from a spoken word world. I d I don't really write poetry to be read on a page. I mean, it's cool, people read it and if they like it, that's awesome. But when I write it, I write it hearing it being said. It's to me it's a it's it's an oral art form. And so I grew up in wherever the poetry reading was is where I went. So and I as again as a kid would go to It's a little coffee shop on campus corner across the street from the University of Oklahoma. And we would sit around a table, there were usually four to five people, and we would each just take a turn sitting there reading our poems. And that was 40 years ago, 30 35, let's say 35 years ago. That makes me feel a little better about myself. But now there are poetry readings around the city and There's no sitting around a table. There's a microphone. There's a podium. There's 30 to 50 people in the room. And it's a it's a show. It's it's almost theater. It's you know, it's a performance. And I think that to me is is an impressive. I mean, we had the some of that like really, I mean, that began really in the nineties, but in the when I was going to readings in the 80s, it was sit around a table, but now it's very much. grown into an expressive, you know, a big sort of event performance type of structure. there was a a man named Frank Parman who started the individual artists of Oklahoma, which was our sort of, you know, scrappy alternative arts organization. Started out mainly doing poetry readings. They ended up we had an art gallery and it ran for forty forty years, literally, the organization was in place. And it was all started by a a guy from Norman, actually a series of people from Norman. Frank is sort of the held up as the basis of that, but all all the early poetry readings that I had any experience with all sort of grew out of this guy from Norman.

 

Tim: what do you receive from Norman's literary community, both in terms of support and inspiration for your work?

 

spontaneous bob: To me, the as far as support is just having a community where we can listen to each other. You know, I say things and people listen and then I l you know, and then, you know, in turn we listen to each other. It's not you know but there's the support there is is community. It's you know, there's anytime you have a di you go to a different reading, there's you know, the core group of people who sort of live at that reading. That's their reading. And a lot of them, you know, you'll cross pollinate and things, but We've developed several really close knit readings in Norman and you get sort of that community feel, which you know certainly helps with support. And as far as inspiration, my goodness, these people are amazing. And we the the breadth of and depth of of poets that you hear at a at a poetry reading here in in Norman are are I'm always surprised and always a little amazed. And and usually it's not the people you expect. I mean there there's we have great poets, we have great poets who've been poets for 40, 50 years, and then we have, you know, OU students, college kids who are like, I've never read a poem before, and they get up and just the things that come out of their mouths just blow everyone in the room away. And so that sort of atmosphere is very fertile for inspiration and support both. It's you know, you have a community of people who all Want to be heard, but also want to share and want to hear everyone else as well. And want to, you know, receive as well. And so to that's that's really important.

 

Tim: you have pursued your art in Norman for over two decades. what changes have you witnessed in the city over the years?

 

spontaneous bob: goodness. As I you know, I think we do we talked about it earlier that when I first poetry wise especially was used to be, you know, you'd sit in a bookstore and or a coffee shop and read around a table, you know, four or five poets and now it's a a much bigger thing. there's also obviously the city has gotten in you know, there's the fact that they have a poet laureate program and That there are the fact that I became a po the poet laureate to me is kind of amazing because I am not a university professor. I'm not even an English major. I have a you know, I have a visual art degree. And the fact that it's not I it's not strictly an academic thing or a yeah, what we were, you know, slam kids in the nineties. you know, there's no real individu no singled out type of poet that happens in Norman and and we all s come together and read together and hang out together

 

Tim: You participate in art walks around Norman, usually through Uncanny Art House. could you describe what someone who joins would experience?

 

spontaneous bob: the interesting thing about Norman's art walks is it kind of depends on which end of the street you start on. I'm re like this last art walk, this is the second Friday of every month, which is also when we do our open mics at Green Feather We get people cut so you know we get a lot of people coming in and out of the poetry reading, but we're kind of at the poetry reading during art walk. So it you know, that's sort of where I'm camped out. Or last last month we did the open mic recently at Uncanny. So we brought the Greenfeather crowd along to the uncanny crowd. So it's yeah, there's

 

Tim: Thank you.

 

spontaneous bob: a lot of different locations you can visit. And it's a really neat experience. you know, musicians on the streets. There's every gallery is open, every restaurant that isn't normally a gallery suddenly is sort of a gallery. And then you've got artists on the streets with tables, you know, just sort of setting up vending. You've got sometimes a poet on the corner just reading a poem, and then we know we do our open mics also at that time. So there's a lot of anything you can expect there. There's crochet, there's you know, paint, there's oil painting, there's fine art, there's sculpture, there's music, poetry. It's it's a big blend of just about everything you can imagine. And it's all just, you know, once a month on our little Main Street in Norman.

 

Tim: so what does the future hold for Spontaneous Bob, and for Norman?

 

spontaneous bob: goodness. I hope only the best and greatest of things are in our future. for me, this the Poet Laureate thing I would like to sort of help grow that to where it it serves the community more. You know, we're again we're learning, we're a new program, but I would love for it to like one of my dr one of my goals is when you drive down through Norman at night, some building somewhere you will see a haiku projected on a wall or something like that. That's just one of the little projects I'd like to do. And also, you know, coming from a visual standpoint, I I'd like to you know, I like to take poetry and make it visual as well.

 

Tim: could you please tell us about damn publishing and its origins?

 

spontaneous bob: So many, many, many, many moons ago, in a in a in a different time known as the nineties, I used to host a poetry reading in Oklahoma City, just right down the road from Norman here. So we're kind of, you know, we're all kind of a metro area. and nineties were very slam, they were very inj energetic. Poems were very fast and loud, hey, yeah, you know, and it was all very, you very performative and very not performative necessarily, but very performance driven. And among the poets who got up one night was this wonderful man named Rick Rupel. And he I I don't know that I really knew him at the time, but he got up to the microphone and everybody's yeah and loud and big and you know, flying hand gestures and things. And Rick read this quiet little poem about an egg, and it was gorgeous, and the room is just silent. listen to this guy, you know, it's normally, you know, sort of r rowdy, drunken crowd. And everyone just listened to this little poem about an egg. And then he walked off. And I came up and you know, my job, you know, being the host was to, you know, be witty and loud and say, hey, and you know, segue into our next big poet. And I stood there for a second and the only thing that I could say was, damn. And I don't know exactly how it happened, but over the next now twenty-five years or so, we don't we don't we don't snap our fingers at an Oklahoma poetry reading. You can you you can woot and you can yell and you can clap, but when something move when a poem touches you in your soft bits, it's okay, it's encouraged, we we y you will just hear people yelling, damn. It's part of part of the the the Oklahoma poetry culture is just damn. And so we started damn publishing and you'll hear damn a lot if you come to Oklahoma. And at the Green Feather readings, our second Friday readings, we usually have a featured poet. And that featured poet will get up, you know, they start the reading with about 20 minutes and we do our open mic, and then you know, they come back and sort of close us out, and then they get usually They receive a mug at the end of the night, welcoming them into the damnworthy poets club. So as poets feature at the bookstore, they become members of the Damnworthy Poets Club. Because they are damn worthy. Of course, so are all of our open mic people.

 

Tim: fantastic. Norman's history reads like the most vivid chapters of the American experience, in which the realization of enormous opportunity walks alongside harsh denial, Only a truly gifted writer could translate a sweeping, complex history into timeless, demanding narratives. A gifted writer such as Rilla Askew, a native of Oklahoma, and author of such modern classics as The Mercy Seat and Harp Song.

 

Tim Castano: you were born in Poto in the Samboa Mountains, raised in Bartlesville, studied in Tulsa, and now reside in Norman. So you have deep

 

Rilla Askew: Thank

 

Tim Castano: experience in several parts of the state. While diverse, does Oklahoma possess any universal narrative qualities?

 

Rilla Askew: I think it absolutely does. It has primarily the narrative quality of immigration, migration, and emigration. So, you know, the state was the original Indian territory. And so the indigenous tribes, particularly The five tribes as they're often spoken of the Choctaw Cherokee, Muscogee Creek, Seminole and Chickasaw were removed here in the 1800s. And so it became a place, already there were indigenous people here, of course. for whom these were the homelands, but then so many tribes, originally from the southeast of the continent and then eventually from all over the continent, were all relocated to this place here in middle of the continent. And so it has that, you know, it's the Trail of Tears. It's that forced migration, forced immigration into the place. Then there's the great narrative of migration out during the Dust Bowl era when all the Okies, as they were called, relocated to the West Coast. So many did. This was also the place where many, African American people relocated in the post

 

Tim Castano: No.

 

Rilla Askew: reconstruction era from

 

Tim Castano: Yeah.

 

Rilla Askew: the South to escape that devastating Jim Crow South. And so they came to what was then Indian territory. what in Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn at the very end when Huck Finn is going to light out for the territories. That's where he's planning to go is what was then known as Indian territory. So I think that that combination of forced migration Then we also have the land runs, which were primarily white dominated and people who came and settled in 24 hours. know, the state capital went up, towns were born, people homesteaded. So everything happened really

 

Tim Castano: See

 

Rilla Askew: quickly. It is sort of the American master narrative in terms of. know, settlers coming to colonize a particular place, but it also holds all of that original indigenous ethnic cleansing, which is what the Trail of Tears absolutely was, and the relocation of Native peoples from their homelands

 

Tim Castano: Open.

 

Rilla Askew: on top of the homelands of Native people who are already here. And it has the element of such strong, such a strong Black history.

 

Tim Castano: Thanks.

 

Rilla Askew: that where so many African Americans came here, know, Ralph Ellison was born and grew up in Oklahoma City among many, many really accomplished African American people who lived here in the early part of the 20th century leading up to 1921 and the Tulsa Race

 

Tim Castano: you

 

Rilla Askew: Massacre. which changed everything. So these are the narratives that, you know, it's violent. It's also a place of promise. And it's a place of many, many secrets. So, and then there's the oil boom, but that's the whole other story. So we have lots of narratives, I would say.

 

Tim Castano: you have said how your grandfathers handed down tales since your childhood. Beyond their influence, have other Oklahoma storytellers shaped you?

 

Rilla Askew: yes. And of course I have to add my dad to that because he was a storyteller as well. So yes, it comes down in the family from they were white southerners who carried the tradition of storytelling in their bones, I would say. But probably one of the first big influences is Ralph Ellison. His Invisible Man, 75th anniversary of its publication is next year. And so how, I don't think I even knew when I was young that he was from Oklahoma. I didn't have that sense of him. it was not until I began to read his essays, like in going to the territory collection, that I began to realize how important growing up in Oklahoma had been for him. But just as a writer, yes, he one of my most important influences. I would say probably in Woody Guthrie, you can't leave out Woody Guthrie as a storyteller. A singer-songwriter, yes, but also there's Bound for Glory. And if you ever listen to the tapes of him sometimes, I mean, he just told stories, he told stories in his songs. So those were some of the forebears, the elders, the ancestors. In my own lifetime, it's really been the indigenous poets. It's Joy Harjo, who when I first encountered her work in 1989, I was so knocked out and she was so writing to an Oklahoma that I knew and recognized. yet she illuminated for me. Lance Hinson, Cheyenne poet who actually has lived in Europe for many years. He was a very early influence. And I'm trying to think about other fiction writers whose work has influenced me. I've come to some of them somewhat later, actually. Sonora Babb wrote a really wonderful novel about the Great Depression and the migration of the Oakey, quote unquote, migrants going to California called Whose Names Are Unknown. And it had not yet been published, although she had a contract for it. And she was working in the camps, in the weed patch camp and other camps in California with those migrants who were, again, there's that migration story out of Oklahoma going west. of course, not just Oklahoma, the entire Despo was the whole region, but we were called Ogees. And it was a very disparaging term. And she saw the poverty and she worked there and she was with the people and she was writing about it. And then John Steinbeck came and visited the camps and I think it was his editor. someone asked her to share her notes with him, which she did do. And then he wrote Grapes of Wrath, really

 

Tim Castano: Nice.

 

Rilla Askew: entirely from her notes, largely. And then she couldn't and then they rescinded the contract for her novel. They did not publish it and it was not published until the very last years of her life. They did. The University of Oklahoma Press published it. I think just a couple of years or a year before she passed away.

 

Tim Castano: Hmm.

 

Rilla Askew: I would say a lot of Oklahoma poets have had, even though I don't really write poetry, I go to lot of poetry readings and I have a lot of poet friends and reading their poetry and especially their Oklahoma themed poetry really inspires me.

 

Tim Castano: in your work as a professor of creative writing at the University of Oklahoma, do you find any characteristics in your students that set them apart from your peers? And what in your students' work excites you about the upcoming generation of writers?

 

Rilla Askew: I would say that what distinguishes my students is they have a kind of hunger. But their influence, and I think this is generational and not just specific to Oklahoma, they have great imaginations and great ability to tell stories, but their storytelling is very television and film and video game oriented. And they don't know how to use the tools of fiction because they don't read enough fiction. sometimes, some of my students, and the students are from all over as within the university, but we have... majority from either Oklahoma or surrounding states, Kansas, it's very much Texas, a lot of Texans come here to our university. so their narratives are Midwestern, Southwestern. And once they begin to tap into their own story, they don't come to my classes interested in their own stories. They don't seem to have an idea of how strong and rich their own stories are. And so they come wanting to write speculative fiction and, you know, basically genre fiction. And it does not take very long of having them read work that touches their own experience and where they hear voices that are like the voices of their grandparents, where they begin to be interested in telling their own story. So I don't know if I would say that this sets them apart from students anywhere else. I think that there's a unique sensibility in Oklahoma. But I don't know that that necessarily translates to my students across the board because my students come from other places besides just here.

 

Tim Castano: you lived in New York for several years

 

Rilla Askew: Mm-hmm.

 

Tim Castano: and settled at Norman in 2015. What does Norman give you as a writer that differs from what you experienced in a larger metropolitan city?

 

Rilla Askew: I community. So it's not that one doesn't find community in New York. I had a terrific community at Brooklyn College as a matter of fact, that was an MFA program and a community that arose out of that. But then if I would go to events in Manhattan, you feel that hierarchy and you feel like you're sort of always knocking at the window trying

 

Tim Castano: Thanks.

 

Rilla Askew: to get in. And I don't feel that here. I feel the. There's a great supportive artistic community, but in my case it's primarily writers, but there are all the other arts here as well. And this is, it's true absolutely in Norman. But it's also true elsewhere in the state. So there's a terrific writing community. I would say Norman, our writing community radiates out, include Oklahoma City and surrounding areas. And then there's also a terrific writing community in Tulsa. And we have increasingly communication between the two metropolitan areas. And then there are, you know, there are. bookstores and poetry readings and gatherings and groups in small towns all over the state, which people just would not know or expect. You know, if you go to Ada, you go to Durant, as we call it, Durant, there are, you know, monthly poetry readings and, and, know, Shawnee gatherings of people who care about the written word. So those are that sense of that we are not in competition. that we are not all striving for the golden ring, but that we are all looking to tell the story of our era, of our place, what it is that we're bearing witness to. And there's a real sense of support. So. That's the difference in my experience between the two. I also lived in the Catskill Mountains for a long time and had good community there, but it wasn't a writing community. I didn't really have writing friends there, just a couple. that, you know, whatever your form is, your art form, that's where you need to find, other people who know what it's like to be doing what you're doing so you can share it with them. your work features themes related to social justice. Oh yeah.

 

Tim Castano: your work features themes related to social justice and obviously never more relevant. Do you feel an even more urgent obligation today to highlight perhaps overlooked elements of Oklahoma's past so they do not become lost to history?

 

Rilla Askew: Absolutely, and not just our past but our present. It happens that I am primarily an historical novelist, so I do look to the past in the ways that it illuminates where we are today and how elements of the past have shaped how we are today. But then there are also many elements that are happening in a more recent era. So of course, the Oklahoma City bombing, the worst up until 9-11, the worst terrorist, greatest loss of life, most devastating domestic terrorist attack that had ever happened in this country. There's a wonderful novel about that, by the way, by another Oklahoma writer. She's not in Norman, but she lives in Edmond, which is just on the other side of Oklahoma City. Her name is Constance Squires. And so there's a novel called Low April Sun that came out last year around the time of the 30th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. that deals with the lingering trauma of that event. you know, from from 1995 forward, there are still also many stories and many hidden stories. There are political stories, the erosion

 

Tim Castano: No!

 

Rilla Askew: of women's rights in this state, the fact that there are more women incarcerated in Oklahoma than anywhere, capita, than anywhere in the world. In the world. because of the harshness of our laws. And so it's primarily for drug reasons and so forth. But so there's a real dichotomy in this state because I know we're talking cities. So we are talking Norman, but it's

 

Tim Castano: Good

 

Rilla Askew: hard for me not to speak about the entire state because it affects everything. Norman is a marvelous. I would just say liberal blue dot as a university town in an urban area. But we still don't have a strong enough effect on our statewide politics that affect everyone's lives. Homelessness, the unhoused, the poverty rates, the poverty rates in the rural areas, the lack of support for our rural schools. there are many. many troubles, but I think it's really women's issues here as they are now that have always, that belong to the past but belong to now and that this is an untold story or that needs to be told more. And so the high rate of incarceration for women, this also includes women who have killed their abusers and you know, and or even a woman whose domestic partner killed her child. and she gets a worse and longer prison sentence than the man who did the actual killing. It happens again and again. So we could go for a long time on that, and maybe that will be my next novel. I don't know.

 

Tim Castano: Hmm.

 

Rilla Askew: I'm working on a novel now that deals with the theft of oil and the use of oil and the entrepreneurship and the capitalism in this state that is also historical. It's set in the 50s and 60s. So there are many stories that we still have yet to tell. They all involve social justice. From my point of view, there's no way for, but especially in this era, for us not to need to bear witness to that, whether it's in the past or just now. And we always, they're always hidden stories because we always lie to ourselves or allow ourselves to be lied to about who we

 

Tim Castano: Bye.

 

Rilla Askew: are and what we've done.

 

Tim Castano: what authors from Norman should we look out for in the future?

 

Rilla Askew: Well, I have mentioned, I believe, Daniel Simon, who

 

Tim Castano: Mm-hmm.

 

Rilla Askew: is the editor-in-chief of World Literature Today. He's also a poet, and he's someone that I think understands Norman's

 

Tim Castano: Open. Open. Open.

 

Rilla Askew: literary legacy. He understands who the writers were in the early part of the 20th century all the way up to now.

 

Tim Castano: Dad!

 

Rilla Askew: So he's one. I'm trying to think of others who are specifically Norman based. And I will tell you one who's going to be very soon, and that's Cherokee writer Brandon Hobson, who's coming here to teach at the University of Oklahoma starting in the fall. And so

 

Tim Castano: I can't. I can't. can't. can't. can't. Mom,

 

Rilla Askew: he's originally from Oklahoma, but this will be the first time that he's been teaching here and living here in Norman.

 

Tim Castano: Here we go.

 

Rilla Askew: I actually know a lot of poets here in Norman, There's a poet named Nathan Brown who's a poet troubadour. travels all around the Southwest, both giving like house parties and singing and sharing his poetry. And he is Norman born and raised and... you know, I would, you know, radiate out to include this area and then I would just go right up 44 to Tulsa and touch base with Keresh Ali Lansana, a marvelous poet there, Jennifer Croft. I mean, there's so many wonderful writers really in Oklahoma City and Tulsa and... just frankly all over the state. One writer who's just emerging, again a poet, but she has a new collection that be coming out next summer. Her name is Jessica Willingham and she's very much, so just speaking of how someone comes from a place and evokes that place in their work and how all of the things that have gone together to enrich and also disturb. a particular place, and the history and the stories that we come down with are all manifested in her poetry. so there are emerging writers coming for sure.

 

Tim: Norman, Oklahoma. Internationally prominent, deeply American, historically absorbing, and endlessly creative. A most fulfilling locale for a lit trip.