Santa Fe

Tim Castano: Witterbinner hosted several artistic luminaries in Santa Fe. ⁓ D.H. Carl Sandberg, Georgio Keefe, Ansel Adams, Thornton Wilder, ⁓ Lawrence belongs to a broad collection of writers charmed and moved Santa Fe's distinctive mix of spectacle, culture, and history. The stated philosophy of the Institute of American Indian Arts Creative Writing Program reads as follows. Inspired by the words of our elders those in our literary lineages, Santa Fe Literary continues the early 20th century ⁓ tradition of writers and artists to the city, Do the authors at the festival ever note having appreciation for walking in the footsteps of their literary predecessors and keeping alive the city's legacy? Graham, among so many others. To what did he expose them during his visits? And to what degree does he deserve credit for establishing the city as an artistic center, an identity that continues today? We create worlds from words. How do the professors, students, and alumni embrace and actualize this philosophy? And how does this ethos come out in the work of those associated with the Institute?

Tim: I am Tim Costano and this is Lit Trip, where we take you on a tour through a location's literary past, present, and future. Writers, scholars, civic leaders, and fans guide us through the history, influences, traditions, and contributions that transform a place into a destination. If you enjoy stories, personalities, and escape, come lose yourself in a Lit Trip.

Tim Castano: a tour guide, might you a visitor interested in uncovering Santa Fe's literary legacy? Which sites should a bookish traveler see to appreciate both the literary history and the current creative activity? Its high elevation in the southern Rocky Mountains opens the city to a brilliance that lights landscapes and imaginations.

Kelsey Brown: Well, let me start with sort of how he came to Santa Fe and how that all sort of interplayed. ⁓ He actually came to Santa Fe in 1922 to do a poetry reading of his Chinese poetry. He was an avid student and translator of Chinese literature. And while he was here, he fell ill. So he moved into the Sunmount Sanatorium here in Santa Fe, which was kind of known for its tuberculosis.

Kamella Cruz: Great question. Our lineage at the Institute of American Indian Arts is so rich, in part because of the land where we're situated. We're situated in Santa Fe, New Mexico. So we're the home, we're the hub of so many different tribes, nations, Pueblos. We have students from Alaska, South America, Dene, all sorts of tribes and all sorts of languages, anything that you can think of. And our lineage is so strong because we have

Tim Castano: beyond the festival's events, what are some of the quieter places in Santa Fe a visitor experience in order to its literary character?

Megan Mulry: Very much so. How the festival came to be was sort of organically through Santa Fe as a draw. So we had the partnership of the local hotels from the very beginning. And ⁓ of the more famous locations is called the Inn of the Turquoise Bear, where D.H. Lawrence stayed and our writers love to stay there.

Tim Castano: The oldest capital in the nation, Santa Fe's blend of Native American, Spanish, and Anglo influences appears in its architecture within the Canyon Road art galleries and of course through words, both written and spoken. The city different serves as home to writers from afar and authors whose families have resided in the area for hundreds of years.

Garrett Peck: Santa Fe has so much culture. It's such an incredible city where we number about 91,000 people or so and yet we have big city amenities. We have an opera house. We have about 450 restaurants. It's just remarkable. As far as like the literary scene, I'd say a couple of things, especially the Hotel La Fonda, which was built in 1922 and that was a Fred Harvey Hotel. So kind of a railroad based business model. And that is where Willa Cather and her partner, Edith Lewis stayed.

Megan Mulry: Yeah, I love thinking about that. I mean, to understand its literary character, I think is to understand its geography and physical space and architecture and landscape. ⁓ of favorite places. I think of it as places that I like to go to read, which in turn are places that have inspired writers.

Kelsey Brown: patients and I don't honestly know if he had TB or he just had something else. So he stayed at the sanatorium to recuperate from this illness and sort of fell in love with Santa Fe and decided to stay. And shortly thereafter bought this house on old Santa Fe Trail ⁓ it just, as you said, became a gathering place for these sort of literary luminaries and ⁓ he his long-term partner Robert Hunt

Megan Mulry: So it's sort of baked into the feeling of the festival ⁓ when people come to visit. But in terms of the festival programming, it's also from the very beginning been ⁓ both a magnet for international and national authors and a celebration of local authors like N. Scott Mamadé, George R. R. Martin, Doug Preston, Hampton Sides. So there's a lot of contemporary.

Kamella Cruz: alumni and past professors, including the US poet laureate. We have Arthur Z, who was taught at IAIA. I worked under him as an undergrad. Former poet laureate, Joy Harjo. Names like N. Scott Mamadei, D.G. Oakpick, Heather Calhoun. It's just unmeasurable, the amount of influences that we have had. Individuals who have come through the Institute, studied there, graduated there, are now professors as well as mentors.

Garrett Peck: twice in 1925 briefly, and that's where she had the idea, the light bulb moment for Death Comes for the Iron Spaceship. And then as well, she stayed there for an entire month in 1926 researching the Santa Fe aspect of the novel. So that's a really core place. They asked me last year if I could provide any materials for the National Trust for Historic Preservation. had a historic hotel program, and they wanted to come up with a...

Megan Mulry: as we were talking about Willa Cather, I think when I drive from Santa Fe to Taos, that's a very, in terms of literary history, a very rich ⁓ landscape where death comes for the archbishop was a lot those ⁓ pueblos and ⁓ vistas and landscapes are still exactly as were and very inspiring. And then in terms of quiet spaces, obviously in the landscape,

Kelsey Brown: held salons in their library. And I think something about Wetter Benner, also known as Hal, he was very sort of quirky, I guess, and welcoming. ⁓ I think ⁓ a area where maybe people sometimes were jealous or ⁓ for the stage, he was much more sort of

Megan Mulry: not historical necessarily, but this idea that the literary legacy of the city is alive and thriving. So we have both the historical draw, but also the contemporary. had a meeting this morning with an author who's been coming to the festival for the past four years, and he was talking to a younger writer and they were in the green room getting ready to go on stage and sort of stopped and said, you know,

Kamella Cruz: So at IAIA, we have the creative writing program, both for undergrad and graduate students. And we get to work one-on-one. It's a low residency model for the graduate program. So they get to work one-on-one with these big names. So it's huge. Arthur still comes to campus. He visits the creative writing room. We have a room named after him with all the comfy couches where all the creative writing students gather. So he still comes. He still comes to campus and treats every student like they're going to be the next great poet.

Garrett Peck: historic hotels that have influenced literature. And so Lafondia reached out to me like, got anything for us? And I gave them three pages of documentation. And about three weeks later, they sent me to Press release where they were named one of 25 hotels that are heavily literary influenced. And it was all about Willa Cather. So I made a little contribution to my own city. So I'm proud of that.

Tim Castano: vistas and landscapes are still exactly as they were and it's very inspiring. And then in terms of quiet spaces, in the landscape Santa Fe is one of the only places I know of where you can be right downtown and then you can start walking and you can be in beautiful nature in the National Forest or in beautiful trails.

Megan Mulry: Santa Fe is one of the only places I know of where you can be right downtown and then you can start walking and you can be in beautiful ⁓ nature in the national forest or in beautiful trails. And then other places just personally where I like to go for quiet spaces for reading, which I think ⁓ the is very conducive are the historic buildings right around the plaza. There's La Fonda Hotel.

Kelsey Brown: let's bring everyone together and work together and ⁓ feed each other's genius and what are you doing and how can I help promote that. So as you said, ⁓ when came here, he became very good friends with DH and Freda Lawrence. Those were probably his closest friends and he traveled with them a lot, with Robert and without Robert. But in terms of things that he... ⁓

Megan Mulry: is that George R.R. Martin behind you? And I've heard similar things where I think Colson Whitehead and Margaret Atwood were in conversation and they had never met one another. And it was sort of this feeling of the spontaneity of Santa Fe being a place that all of these different people are drawn to. And I think that is tied into the history. I know that's sort of more contemporary, but I think it relates because as with

Kamella Cruz: It's a one-on-one, really intimate type of relationship. And us as professors, we work tirelessly to make sure that students ⁓ respect where they come from, that they're true to their heritage, that they're true to their tribal families and clans. Step number one is making sure they're making grandma proud. The work that they're creating is something they can take home to community. And then changing the world. So being coherent and aware of all of the

Garrett Peck: So, but that's a really core place to go see. As far as like the arts, ⁓ my gosh, the arts are just everywhere in Santa Fe. We are one of the biggest art scenes we have in the country. Thanks in part to the art colony here, you're really getting established by right after World War I. So we have a huge art scene. The biggest concentration is on Canyon Road, which is about a half mile long of just one art gallery after the next. But there's also of course downtown. There's the Raleigh Art District where I live, and then there's the Baca Raleigh Art District.

Megan Mulry: So lot of authors who have stayed there over the years. now of course we partner with them. So Percival Everett stayed there and there's this very rich community and a lot of the hotels actually, I met with one of the general managers after last year's festival. ⁓ And said, it's definitely a different vibe in the lobby of the hotel and the literary festivals in town because everybody's talking to each other and reading. And you can tell there it's just a different type of feeling.

Tim Castano: inviting dynamic and indelible Santa Fe, New Mexico makes for a memorable stop on a lit trip.

Kelsey Brown: introduce them to in Santa Fe or the greater northern New Mexico area, I would say Mabel Dodge Lujan, who was part of sort of the Taos art scene and very important in that scene. ⁓ think he introduced a lot of them to her. ⁓ And also just feel like these salons and gatherings in their home, they were able to

Megan Mulry: Willa Cather and DH Lawrence and Woodar Binner and people that you've mentioned. It's again, it's this living legacy. I think that people are really drawn to.

Kamella Cruz: the role is that each individual student has. They're not just students, but they're community members and tribal members. And yeah, we embrace all of that and we work really hard to keep our students grounded. So their work is both grounded and revolutionary all at the same time. ⁓

Garrett Peck: And now an emerging artist scene over on the Rufina near Meow Wolf, the OG Meow Wolf. They spread around the country, but we have the first one. 10 years old this year. So we have a huge art scene around here in Santa Fe and lots of great independent bookstores. It's a fabulous city.

Tim Castano: The moment I saw the brilliant proud morning shine high up over the deserts of Santa Fe, something stood still in my soul. D.H. Lawrence.

Megan Mulry: I made a little list of places that I, um, also enjoy going. The botanical garden is a really interesting botanical garden. When you think of, or I grew up thinking of botanical gardens as being very lush and they're very focused on local plants that can thrive in the high desert. And they also have literary programming there. And then.

Tim Castano: cities change and local culture always evolves. ⁓ How do the and rhythms of Santa Fe at any time enter into the festival's theming?

Kelsey Brown: generate new ideas or bounce ideas off each other and sort of grow their literary careers as it were.

Tim Castano: does Institute of American Indian Arts engage with the broader Santa Fe literary community? ⁓

Kamella Cruz: ⁓ gosh, how don't we interact? You know, it's all just so, Santa Fe is such a great community. ⁓ The arts are just really supported and it's really just integral and part of the whole relationship. This winter, Arthur, Zee, and Enscot Mamadé, they read on campus to a completely sold out and filled gymnasium. It included, you know, devoted readers in their 80s to their 10 year old grandkids that they brought with them. And it's a big community event. It was huge for the school.

Megan Mulry: So it's interesting, I was thinking about this, idea of theming ⁓ has never really been part of our mission, but it kind of happens each year that there are certain global themes that drive the flavor of each particular festival. And last year we opened with Percival Everett and we closed with Heather Prox Richardson. I also love reading in museums. It's something I started doing when I was a child in New York, being able to go into museums and find a bench and sort of be surrounded by masterpieces while reading. So just contemporary art called Site Santa Fe. they also bring writers in and ⁓ it's ⁓ architecturally, it's wonderful because it's the former.

Tim Castano: The early part of the 20th century presents one entry point for consideration of Santa Fe's literary history.

Megan Mulry: So there was this real sense of ⁓ not the political moment necessarily, but the role that we as readers and members of the community have to stand up for ourselves. And I'm sure you've read both of those books and Percival Everett had just received the ⁓ Pulitzer the week before, I think, for James and Heather Cox Richardson was ⁓ talking about.

Kamella Cruz: to have Arthur come back, right? So he's got this platform of being the current US Poet Laureate, but he's still coming back, right? He's still in the community and writes about Santa Fe and writes about the Ezequias and the ditch cleaning and the mountains and all the seasons and everything that Santa Fe as a community is going through. And he's still, keeping that home connection. And the energy is contagious, right? When Arthur's around or it's got Mamadé, whenever Joy is doing readings, IAEA students get, you know, free admittance.

Tim Castano: museum called Sight Santa and they also bring writers in. architecturally it's wonderful because it's the former Anheuser-Busch Distribution Center. It's this very modern box frame. And then they did a beautiful kind of architectural interpretation.

Megan Mulry: Anheuser-Busch Distribution Center. So it's this very modern box frame. And then they did a beautiful kind of architectural interpretation, ⁓ structure kind of coming up on the edge. And it's also part of what's called the rail yard district, which was wonderful, I guess about 20 years ago now, reclamation and redesign of the former rail yard. there's a great.

Tim Castano: Just as during this period, visual artists discovered the city and in turn established an enduring creative community, so too did writers come to appreciate Santa Fe's scenery, lifestyle, and people.

Megan Mulry: you know, the current state of the government, but in a, in a way that was very almost hopeful, which I think James is in a way as well. It's kind of a liberation philosophy. ⁓ theming changes each year ⁓ ⁓ culture changes. ⁓ ⁓ year, I there's a ⁓ lot about personal,

Kamella Cruz: We take field trips with our creative writing students. We're taking our poetry and our journalism classes to listen to these really influential speakers and writers at the time. The Southside Library in Santa Fe, they're gonna be hosting a reading for our creative writing mentors. So next month on April 21st, they're gonna have all of our outstanding creative writing students have a reading dedicated just to them. So they can really...

Megan Mulry: movie theater, but they also did a lot of rails to trails. You can walk and sit under beautiful plantings. Those some of my favorite places to read. ⁓ But in terms of the literary history, I think it really is the landscape.

Tim Castano: A novel from the era still introduces legions of readers to the city. Death Comes for the Archbishop by Willa Cather, a title consistently ranked among the most significant English language achievements of the past 100 years.

Kamella Cruz: showcase their work and what they're working on and why they're, you know, exemplary in our program. So that's really great. Creative Writing Bookstore, they host readings and signings. Our graduate students, if they, you know, are publishing their first book, they'll invite them to come to the reading in the plaza. So the community gets to enjoy it. Their families come. As much family-oriented, you know, support and anticipation. I mean, it's just so energetic. Santa Fe is just a really great place for the arts and writing, and we're really lucky.

Megan Mulry: responsibility and personal voice. just seems that way to me with Ocean Bong sold out within 37 minutes and he's got a waiting list of know 700 people and he writes in such a personal way like I think a lot of great books they seem really personal at first but then they're really universal because of it and Judy Blume, Isabel Wilkerson, they're books that take these very seemingly personal, experiences and translate them into, ⁓ especially Isabelle Wilkerson for me I read Cast and then reread it when I found out she was coming to the festival. I think that book is so because of the way she weaves in her very personal experiences and that's what made it so accessible for so many readers ⁓ to really take a closer look

Tim Castano: Santa Fe's writers create diverse literary offerings with a wide variety of genres and styles and themes. Even so, do you see traces of the universal and work originating in the area? Bitter was born in New York, lived in New and other yet found his way to Santa Fe. ⁓ What drew him to the city ⁓ and in what way did he blaze path ⁓ for today's artists ⁓ discover Santa Fe as he did? Author and historian, Gareth Peck, who leads tours throughout Santa Fe, recently published his latest work, The Bright Edges of the World, Willa Cather and her Archbishop. your latest book, The Bright Edges of the World, reaches back to your introduction to Santa Fe as your mother insisted you read Death Comes for the Archbishop prior to your first visit. So, asked another way, is there something about Santa Fe that registers collectively with riders, even if expressed singularly?

Megan Mulry: hierarchies in our society.

Kelsey Brown: Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, he was a traveler. He was interested in different cultures and he had always traveled well before he came to Santa Fe. He was very deep involved in China and Asia. when he came for this poetry reading ⁓ and fell ill and spent however time he did at the sanatorium, I think he fell in love with Santa Fe as many artists did. ⁓ it's a very specific

Kamella Cruz: Definitely. Santa Fe is at the intersection of so many different cultures, right? So historically, ⁓ the Spanish and the Pueblo people have both battled here and existed harmoniously, right? So it's a really rich culture. The Pueblo people here were still so rich in our culture and our languages, our traditions, our dances. Indigenous language is still just spoken daily. We see that a lot at the Institute.

Tim Castano: How personally fulfilling have you found this project as it ties together origin, home, vocation, and so many other threads? You have referenced your first experience in Santa Fe as a youth when visiting the city with your parents and reading Willa Cather's Death Comes for the Archbishop. ⁓ What would the younger version of you think now when seeing you as the leader of such a significant cultural asset? The presence of Kathar and her peers contributed to a formative moment in Santa Fe's literary evolution.

Megan Mulry: ⁓ yeah.

Garrett Peck: Yeah, it really ties together everything here for me. My mom made me read this book before we first visited Santa Fe in 1998. And again, it was my homework assignment before I traveled here to read Willa Cather. And in California schools where I grew up, we didn't read Cather. So I'd actually never heard of her. And my mom was like, ⁓ no, you have to read this book. It's so quintessentially Santa Fe and it's so beautiful. And just fell in love with Santa Fe and really fell in love with Cather's.

Megan Mulry: Disbelief. I think life is so unpredictable. Yeah, everything that got me to this place has seemed highly ⁓ and unlikely. So I think my younger self would have been very excited. ⁓ never thought that I would be able to integrate my love of books into my job. I was raised in a way that was like, ⁓

Kamella Cruz: food, family names. So, you know, you're not going to encounter a lot of Santa Fe writing that doesn't have, you the smells, right? We're talking about the green chili being roasted or pinions being picked in the fall. We're talking about the mountains. We're talking about, you know, the Sangre de Cristos. That's where Santa Fe is nestled, right? We're right below those mountains. So we're talking about those items. We're talking about the luminarias at Christmas time, right? The little paper lanterns that are all over the adobe walls.

Kelsey Brown: ⁓ feeling that light, the people, the kind of multicultural, infusion of Native American, Hispanic, Anglo, I think he was really drawn to that. I think he was very drawn to Native American culture. So I think those are probably the things that drew him here. I don't know for sure. ⁓ But I think then ⁓ with ⁓ his of place, he really did want

Garrett Peck: with her writing style and the story of New Mexico and how beautifully she evoked, very, very sparsely, but beautifully evoked the New Mexico landscape. And of course, the culture of New Mexico and it's a pro-Catholic novel, very, surprising for the 1920s. And at a time when the country was heavily prejudiced against Catholics. So it's just a really beautiful and subtle novel. ⁓ so that was such a great inspiration for me. So being able to then over the years to...

Tim Castano: could you please share how an episode of This Old House drew you first Santa Fe? ⁓ Yes. ⁓ It's funny about these life changing moments. ⁓

Megan Mulry: you know, very encouraging for my parents, but especially my father who was in finance said, well, you know, if you're really into writing, you should go into advertising. that's, that's what you should do. If you're, if you're a good writer, that's how you'll be, a successful business person to use your love of language. yeah, it just feels almost miraculous to be able to have this be my job when in fact, it's something that I would just like being able to call authors and write.

Tim Castano: had a family tragedy at the time. Our son, Matthew, 15 years old, had died from a rare bone cancer known as Ewing's sarcoma. I was then living in Iowa City. I had been a professor of American literature at the University of Iowa.

Kelsey Brown: his friends to come and see it. I don't know how ⁓ much influence he had on staying here, like Georgia O'Keeffe, she came after he did, but they were certainly friends and ⁓ to say, Edna St. Vincent Millay, O'Henry, as you said, Carl Sandberg, Willa Cather. So yeah, I think he just had an open door policy and these artists and literary illuminati would come and

Kamella Cruz: We're talking about Christmas traditions and vespers, all of the feast days that happen. So Santa Fe's literary landscape just looks really rich in the culture, in the language, right? You're gonna hear the last names. You're gonna have abeta and lobatos and the martinez, right? There's just so many go-to just types of items that you're gonna encounter. And the culture and everything just kind of moves together. It's all just a dance and a rhythm that everyone's in.

Garrett Peck: delve into this book and decide how I was going to write it and what was the theme I was going to focus on. And I came around to Kathar's travels. I'm a tour guide. so you'll literate tourism is right up my alley, right? So Kathar came out here to the Southwest six times between 1912 and 1926. And out of those six visits came three novels, the last of which was Death Comes with the Archbishop. So she was someone who was heavily influenced by her travels here to the Southwest.

Megan Mulry: to authors that you deeply admire and be able to pay them. It's a great ⁓ turn of events, but I don't think my younger self could have even imagined it. I guess maybe just a state of disbelief would be what my younger self would be in.

Tim Castano: while authors from around the country ⁓ participate in festival and around the globe, ⁓ you also highlight local writers. ⁓ Could you us more about those efforts?

Kelsey Brown: he would hold these salons and I think he tried to show them this, incredible place. And as I said, he was very attracted to and supportive of Native American artists and just the Native American culture.

Tim Castano: I had resigned by then largely because of Matt's death and I was writing and I eventually, my wife and I found that we couldn't, Iowa City is a wonderful place to live. was, we just loved it, but there were too many memories and so one day in the spring of 1992,

Kamella Cruz: Definitely things that are expressed singularly, but everyone kind of shares this really rich foundation.

Megan Mulry: Absolutely. We work really closely with local nonprofits that advocate for writers and nationally as well. work with Author's Guild, but within New Mexico there's a very strong writers group called NewMexicoWriters.org. One of their founders on our board, ⁓ of their members, and their current board chair is an author who is based in Silver City, New Mexico.

Garrett Peck: And thanks to her letters being released to the public, when there's about 4,000 extant letters, and they give us little cookie crumbs about her travels. So she typically used Hotel Stationery, which I'm very grateful for, because you know exactly where she was. And you get to follow her travels all across the Southwest, where she went, what her moods were, and so on. It's really cool to be able to follow in her footsteps.

Tim Castano: Santa Fe provides writers with numerous for public readings. mentioned some of those already. ⁓ How central is the spoken word as an art form to the city's identity? Perhaps. what the hold for the festival and Santa Fe's literary scene overall? ⁓ no individual did more to help establish the city's reputation as a destination for writers ⁓ poet Witter Binner, who relocated to Santa Fe ⁓ 1922 ⁓ began hosting his contemporaries, introducing his new home to Thornton Wilder, Carl Samberg, D.H. Lawrence, ⁓ Auden, and many others.

Megan Mulry: ⁓ I think Santa Fe's literary scene is really thriving. I think as it always has, but in different ways. I think I mentioned earlier in the conversation as well, they inaugurated the new president of the Institute of American Indian Arts, IAIA, ⁓ which is an international magnet for indigenous voices from around the world. And having those people physically there is

Kamella Cruz: We are constantly, either put to the forefront or pushing our way to the forefront. ⁓ In movements, we have the Santa Fe Plaza, right? So as I had mentioned, a really great intersection place for ⁓ policy ⁓ politics environmental movements. people are being invited constantly to read their poetry or read their fiction pieces. It's definitely something that's integrated.

Tim Castano: We happened to watch an episode of This Old House on PBS. And the show was about Santa Fe. And a couple of things struck us. One was that we were under the impression, as a lot of people are, that it was like Phoenix or Tucson. And that it was ⁓ surrounded broadly by desert. And... ⁓

Megan Mulry: And I know we're talking specifically about Santa Fe, but it has also been part of our, or a hope of ours that all of New Mexico is sort of seen as the regional draw for our festival. ⁓ JJ Amawaro-Wilson is now the board chair of New Mexico Writers. So we try both, again, within the programming to have local authors on stage as much as possible. Brandon Hobson is one of the

Tim Castano: which of his works captures what Santa meant to him?

Kelsey Brown: I think it would be his poem entitled Santa Fe and it sort of talks about the dichotomy of ⁓ modern and and the different cultures and the it's the city of holy faith is what Santa Fe means so that that religious Backdrop of Santa Fe, but it's short. Would you like me to read it? Okay, so it's entitled Santa Fe Santa Fe

Megan Mulry: It just does something to the culture. And likewise, the Santa Fe Art Institute has a relatively new director who's interested in building up residencies, which have always been for visual artists in the past, but possibly also for writers. ⁓ So there's that draw of people coming in. But also there are just, it's a bubbling city in terms of, there's an organization, small and new called Story Lab.

Tim Castano: that it had one season or maybe a hot and then a less hot season. But in fact, we were stunned to see that it was in the mountains at 7,000 feet near a ski resort. it was just totally different from what we'd expected, partly too, because the architecture was so unique.

Kamella Cruz: in traditional ways for our Pueblo people, right? You don't begin anything without opening with a prayer or opening with intention. And our literary works work in a similar fashion, right? So poetry kind of opens the stage, it grounds people, it reminds people where we are, it reminds people whose land we're on, who we're being respectful to. So our public readings are really focused on the land, making sure that we acknowledge that first. So we've got this really great relationship between... ⁓

Tim Castano: Today, the Witter Benner Foundation for Poetry, located in Santa Fe, carries on his legacy, ⁓ supporting current and future generations of poets. Kelsey Brown is the executive director.

Megan Mulry: Headliners who teaches at New Mexico State University. Jake Skeets is the current Navajo poet laureate. And he's coming to speak with Ada Lamone who just stepped down as the US poet laureate. They're gonna be on stage together. And then historically, of course, with ⁓ beginning from the very beginning with ⁓ Annie Hillerman ⁓ Doug Preston, Hampton sides, there's a bit of broadening as well with this idea of ⁓

Tim Castano: Please.

Kelsey Brown: Among the automobiles and in a region now democratic, now Republican, with a department store, a branch of the Legion, a chamber of commerce, and a moving van, in spite of cities crowding on the trail, here is a mountain town that prays and dances with something left, though much besides may fail on the ancient faith and wisdom of St. Francis. His annual feast has come. ⁓ image moves along these streets of people.

Tim Castano: Did your research for The Bright Edges of the World deepen your understanding of your home? And did you come to see Santa Fe through Catharine's eyes?

Megan Mulry: which is kind of like the moth. So there's spoken word going on throughout the year. There's more independent bookstores per capita than anywhere else in the country. For the festival itself, I think it's really paying attention to those organizations that we can partner with both over the festival weekend and throughout the year, which has been a very gradual move. don't want to...

Kamella Cruz: the state capital, the political realm, right? Making sure that we're opening with readings, right? Opening with poetry before we go into, lawmaking. We're invited to environmental protests. We're invited to have days on the Santa Fe Plaza where, it's spoken word night. ⁓ Individuals can come and their poetry, connect with others, have, a good relationship with the public and other writers themselves. So we're definitely in the forefront. ⁓

Tim Castano: One thinks of San Francisco, Charleston, New Orleans, a number of distinctive cities. There aren't a whole lot of them. And Santa Fe is one. ⁓ look is, it adapted from ⁓ a American Pueblo architecture. ⁓ And we got so interested that we decided that we would pay a weekend visit.

Garrett Peck: I very much did. Yeah. Although Santa Fe is much bigger today than it was in Catherine's time back in the twenties, it numbered about 7,500 people. So it was a very small city today. It's like I said, it's about 91,000 people, but being able to, to move through the city and knowing different places that she went to, like the crosses of the cross of the martyrs, which she had a really crucial moment of, of revelation to her novel, uh, being able to go to La Fonda and literally stand in the same spot. got a photograph.

Megan Mulry: stories unite us and looking kind of beyond the traditional book we're doing. Our first graphic novel, Alison Bechtel's coming, but in terms of local storytellers, we're doing a page to screen panel this year, which is almost entirely composed of local writers. So Danny Rubin, who wrote Groundhog Day, lives in Santa Fe, Kirk Ellis, who wrote the screenplay for David McCullough's John Adams, which was the HBO.

Tim Castano: While a confluence of intention and circumstance led Binner and Cather and other writers to Santa Fe, for many authors, an ancestral connection to the city and the surroundings extends for centuries.

Kelsey Brown: and the trees and kneeling women, just as they did before, welcome and worship Him because He proves that natural sinners put Him at ease, and so He enters the cathedral door.

Megan Mulry: expand to quickly beyond what's working, as we were talking about earlier. So make sure that those, that three day session is really well curated and strong and a draw for people to come both from out of town and, and to feed the, the local community. So yeah, as I've been saying to my staff, it's, it's deeper, not wider. want to make sure that ⁓ the quality the festival weekend is just top.

Kamella Cruz: Hope to see that continue.

Tim Castano: And it was a long weekend. It was in the spring. I can't remember which weekend it was. And so we arrived on a Friday and we were going to leave on a Monday. ⁓ ⁓ heavens, by Sunday, we were looking at property. ⁓ I mean, you can tell how urgently we needed ⁓ fresh start. My wife called it beginning Act 3. we found property that we

Garrett Peck: where she had gotten a tourist photograph at La Fonda with a cathedral in the background. That was really cool. She also got a tourist photo with her nieces, twin nieces, ⁓ in front of the Lamy statue, which is right in front of the cathedral as well. And the statue itself was very inspirational to Catherine. She said to one of, you know,

Tim Castano: The Institute of American Indian Arts promotes the study and development of Native American art forms, both honoring the past and preparing the future. In the process, endowing Santa Fe with a powerful cultural asset. do these spoken word platforms and public readings ⁓ align with your own around language revitalization? ⁓

Kelsey Brown: It's timeless and it really shows he had a simplicity about his poetry and he could put a lot into small verse and it really does encapsulate, a lot of

Megan Mulry: And then more recently for Franklin, he is going to be leading that panel. And then Desba, who is an actor, screenwriter and director on Dark Winds. And she's going to be on that panel. other Craig Johnson, who wrote all of the Longmire books, which are also filmed here in New Mexico. And just looking at ⁓ like, where do stories come from and how.

Kamella Cruz: Absolutely. ⁓ Language revitalization is such a broad topic, right? So that's one of my personal passions. ⁓ I'm from Okiawinga, we speak Tehwa. And we come from a generation where our parents weren't allowed to speak our language, right? Come from a boarding school generation where our parents were kind of shielding us from that. And now everyone's just working twofold to try and regain that knowledge.

Garrett Peck: open letter to Commonweal Magazine, a Catholic publication, about two months after the book came out. She got inundated with Catholic fan mail. And about a year and a half ago, I went to the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, where much of her archive is. And there was this big, thick ⁓ envelope full of all the Catholic fan mail from priests, sisters, and nuns that were blown away by the novel. And by the way, Catherine was not Catholic. And yet she so accurately captured Catholic liturgy in there. So I hear it all the time on my tours.

Megan Mulry: Notch and then any other partnerships throughout the year. When Eric Larsen comes to Albuquerque, we want to co-sponsor that because we want our audience to be aware of the fact that there are literary events happening at all times. I got Andrew Sean Greer. So he's coming in June. We're partnering with Bookworks and Poblanos in June.

Tim Castano: Poet, Camilla Cruz is an assistant professor at the Institute of American Indian Arts. we thought was good for us and it had coincidentally been owned by a prior author named Edward T. Hall, one of the early, sort of an early version of neuro-linguistic programming. He was a comparative anthropologist. And anyhow, as it turned out, that was in April and by heavens in the middle of July, we were living in Santa Fe. And that was the summer of 1992 and we have not how the Foundation for Poetry sustain ⁓ his legacy through your programmatic offerings, ⁓ particularly with upcoming generations?

Kamella Cruz: writing things down, know, Indigenous languages were not always written down. It wasn't something that are passed down by books. It's all oral storytelling, oral tradition, maternal knowledge, and cultural and lived experiences. So what we're able to do, especially at IAAI, our students and younger generations are now able to make those books, right? They're able to tell those stories in their Indigenous languages ⁓ and pass it on to their siblings or pass it on to their parents or their grandparents, right?

Megan Mulry: in this golden age of television and ⁓ long form storytelling in that way. And as mentioned before, George R.R. Martin has been on the stage. ⁓ Carmela Padilla is on our board and she's one of the co-founders and she's published numerous books about the history of New Mexico

Kelsey Brown: Yeah. So the foundation was founded in 1973. So we're very proud that it's been, you we're over 50 years and that's a long legacy for him and it continues. So we support organizations that promote poetry. So it can be a school, it can be a prison that uses poetry for rehabilitation of prisoners. It can be individual poets and

Garrett Peck: when I have Catholic people on there.

Megan Mulry: So those types of things that feel like a really good fit, I don't think we're out seeking create new events. But when they come up like that, it's sort of a no brainer and we're really excited to partner with other organizations and ⁓ museums and ⁓ of the other cultural organizations that I mentioned as well. We're always looking for ways that feel like a natural fit for us to either help bring an author that would be part of their programming or vice versa.

Tim Castano: You know, we have not regretted the decision since then. There's something about, ⁓ and again, nothing against Iowa City. We just needed to change. And there's something about the light here. And there's a reason why so many painters came here. There's something about light fielded at 7,000 feet with all the mountains that there's something kind of mystical about the place.

Kamella Cruz: Definitely a time when everyone can come together and sit down and focus on language in a way that was unprecedented, right, that their grandparents wouldn't have even thought of. So we're able to really encourage Indigenous language, right? I'm constantly encouraging my students, you know, write something down if you can, if it's appropriate in your language. ⁓ You can provide translation if you wish. You don't have to. It's completely up to you, right? You have that language sovereignty. And working in these platforms where we're

Tim Castano: The Institute of American Indian Arts, a prominent feature in the city's literary mosaic. One that includes an almost matchless number of independent bookstores, as well as an active, engaged library system.

Kelsey Brown: ⁓ have a lot of organizations in New Mexico. That's our focus. But we also do fund other programs throughout the country, United States. I say ⁓ we have a lot of ⁓ programs we support that are centered around youth. We support a local charter school called New Mexico School for the Arts that has a creative writing program that we support. It's an incredible program. These kids come from around the state of New Mexico.

Megan Mulry: she is a multi-generational New Mexican. I want to say she's been here, her family's been here for 16 generations, her mother's 103, and she's deeply connected to the history of New Mexico, both through her writing and her service to the community. So yeah, on all different levels. And then, for the future of

Tim Castano: the Santa Fe of Cathar's era featured a lively literary community. ⁓ do the ⁓ modern day authors who reside in Santa Fe today share similar bonds? ⁓ Each spring, the Santa Fe International Literary Festival showcases the city's as well as the vitality of its writers, scholars, students, and fans, while also attracting among the most celebrated authors of the day.

Kamella Cruz: We're reading our poetry. I'm reading poetry in Te Waa. I'm sharing languages. I'm putting it out there. It really empowers our youth and lets them know, OK, we can take our language back. We can do it in so many new ways. And yeah, it's a community effort, but everyone's doing it in a unique way for themselves.

Megan Mulry: local writers. We've made a big effort in the past couple of years to include AP English students. So last year a group of students got to meet with Amy Tan in a private meeting and just talk about being, a lot of them are first-generation immigrants and sharing those stories. so across generations we're trying to trying to focus on local storytellers.

Garrett Peck: It's hard to say. mean, I'm an introvert and I'm not like part of a writing group or anything like that. You know, I write on my own and I know other writers like Hampton Sides is here in town and he's a big deal and all ⁓ and funny and humble and wonderful. So clearly there are lots of writers who are here and all. And we see each other, of course, every year like the Santa Fe Literary Festival, which is really, really wonderful and holds about 15,000 people or so. This is our fourth year this year.

Kelsey Brown: for a free education and in the afternoon they have an arts block. It can be visual arts, dance, theater, ⁓ but we support the creative writing program. The one program that the foundation administers that I administer as opposed to funding is the Santa Fe Youth Poet Laureate Program. And that is an offshoot of the National Youth Poet Laureate Program. when we started our program eight years ago, it was relatively new and relatively small. I think there were 30 sort of local programs across the country. But then when Amanda Gorman became the National Poet Laureate through, Youth Poet Laureate through these programs and spoke at the inauguration, I think a light was shined on the program and it exploded. And I think there's maybe close to a hundred local organizations across the country now.

Garrett Peck: that we are hosting this. But we do have a good literary scene here in town.

Tim Castano: Megan Mulry is the festival's executive director.

Kelsey Brown: But our little program in Santa Fe, we ⁓ ask students from across northern New Mexico to submit five poems, a little biography on how they to their communities. We have judges that read the poems. And then we have a really wonderful, what we crowning ceremony, where all of the finalists read their poetry ⁓ and a is chosen for the year.

Tim Castano: do any of your poems best capture your connection ⁓

Kamella Cruz: Growing up here, you know, I'm really invested in the land. So I live in Okehawinge, which is just about 45 minutes north of Santa Fe. Okehawinge was actually the first capital of New Mexico before Santa Fe. So we have a really strong connection with the capital. So much of my writing is, you know, focused on land, being respectful to land, understanding what's happened here for my people, all the generations that came before me.

Tim Castano: as an introvert, ⁓ do you go to certain places within Santa Fe as a ⁓

Garrett Peck: You

Tim Castano: and ⁓ others as an explorer ambassador. That is, do some spaces give you what you need in your creative pursuits, say inspiration, focus, transport, while other spaces open you up to an energy from which you might draw for different ventures.

Kelsey Brown: and they get a thousand dollars from the foundation. But more importantly, I think they get a lot of opportunity for speaking and reading engagements throughout their tenure and beyond. And in our fifth year, we did a compendium of poetry from all of our finalists and published it. So they all got copies of ⁓ the and now they're published poets. And, it's just a really nice pathway for them to see, huh, this is a realistic possibility for me in my life.

Garrett Peck: Yeah, I'd say mostly I write at home. Like I'm not one of those writers who goes to the coffee house. It's too distracting. I end up like listening to conversations when I really need to focus and I've really great focus and but I need no distractions. So my best place is to write is to write at home. I go to the library an awful lot and check a lot of books out. So ⁓ the writing I do is heavily I write nonfiction. So it's heavily research based. So I

Kamella Cruz: ⁓ I'd say all of my poetry is in relation to my place and my people. Santa Fe in particular, definitely, right? I completed my undergrad at the Institute of American Indian Arts. I also completed my graduate program there and now I have the honor of teaching. It's just been a really interesting journey. All of my children grew up with me. My youngest daughter learned to crawl in the Student Success Center. ⁓

Tim Castano: you have said in the past, and you just alluded that Santa Fe gives you as a writer a vast mystical landscape and how the way the light keeps changing encourages your imagination. Does that hold as true for you today as it did when you first settled in the city in 1972? indeed. My wife and I were just talking about that the other day. At certain times of the year, the sun is angled and casts a kind of a golden glow. As the Santa Fe International Literary Festival illustrates, a diverse community yields a diversity of genres, poetry, nonfiction, memoir, drama. In the case of David Morrell, bestselling fiction and thrillers, including his 1972 novel, First Blood, which introduced the world to the character, John Rambeau.

Kamella Cruz: 10 years later, now my next daughter is also learning to crawl there too. So it's a really great connection. And a lot of my writing is geared towards Santa Fe, ⁓ towards the mountains and the rivers and everything that I encounter, ⁓ driving to work every day and driving back. And we're really fortunate, right? I'm choosing to raise my family here in the home that my grandparents and great grandparents lived in, right? We're in the same adobe, on the same land, where all the same ceremonies happen and all the traditions are still alive and well.

Garrett Peck: go through just hundreds of books and articles and whatnot. So the interlibrary loan woman, her name is Esther, has gotten to know me really, well because they order so much stuff. As far as places I love to travel, I love excursions out here. You can draw a one hour excursion around Santa Fe. Every direction, there's something incredible to go see.

Tim Castano: almost a reddish glow over the mountains. And this is it's descending into the west and the mountains on the east slope. ⁓ there's a reason why the Spanish called the mountains the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, the blood of Christ, because they were ⁓ it, the hue that the setting sun can cast is like blood. Drawn to the city's architectural wonder in the early 1990s, Morel found much more in Santa Fe, importantly, a home that has fostered over three decades of extraordinary output.

Kelsey Brown: one the poets who was starting out that the foundation funded was a poet named Arthur Zee. And we have continued to support his work. And even this year, we supported a translation into Portuguese of one of his works. And he was just named the US Poet Laureate.

Garrett Peck: And course you widen the circle. There's this incredible places like going to Chaco. Chaco culture on National Historical Park, I've been there three times. I need to go again. And there's always this more to unpack, this incredible indigenous culture that developed starting around 850 of the common era. When Europe was a backwater, we had this really sophisticated and very hierarchical and uneven.

Kelsey Brown: Again, he was an early judge for our Santa Fe Youth Poet Laureate program. He's also mentored some of our youth poets. And our third youth poet laureate, a young man named Oz Leshem, who's in college now, and I'm still in touch with him, he's judged for me, and he started a poetry program at his college. And when Arthur was named U.S. Poet Laureate, I heard from Oz, and he was so excited that...

Kamella Cruz: I write into that, absolutely.

Tim Castano: But certainly the light changes so much, not only throughout the day, but 7,000 feet really is a different, you know, different filter. ⁓ also season to season that ⁓ was just, again, the other day I was somewhere that I thought I was very familiar with, but all of a sudden it was entirely different because the light was hitting it differently. ⁓ yeah, it certainly, it Are there any emerging writers we should have our eye on from the Santa Fe area ⁓

Kamella Cruz: a great question. ⁓ see. Yeah, there's a ton of emerging writers. ⁓ see, Miles Miller ⁓ a Dene writer is absolutely fantastic. Represented ⁓ at ⁓ ⁓ past summer. ⁓ have, Jamie who's also a Dene writer. Thomas Daisy, about to graduate from our graduate program. ⁓

Garrett Peck: Indigenous civilization that's out here clearly influenced by Mesoamerica, know, we got established right around the time when the Mayans were kind of falling apart and They built 13 massive great houses that are just incredible to see so I love going out there Just kind of reminds you how ancient New Mexico is so in my book I In the opening I talked about perspectives about things. I initially I was gonna use the

Tim Castano: Santa Fe, New Mexico, the city different. As striking and inspiring today for storytellers and audiences as throughout its history.

Kelsey Brown: someone who he knew from his hometown, who had mentored him and who he'd been involved with in poetry, was now the U.S. Poet Laureate. And that connection that he had, I think, was really meaningful to him.

Tim Castano: ⁓ as I described it. Denial, The Shimmer, The Spy Who Came for Christmas, and Rio Grande Gothic appear to be your works most directly linked to Santa Fe. ⁓ Do of the city's influence show up in other pieces of your writing, perhaps in ways only you might recognize? Well, in a way, I've spoken often about my indebtedness to a writer named Sterling Silophant.

Kamella Cruz: We have so many different genres that are really flourishing right now. So, you know, we've got fiction writers who are reshaping Indigenous futurism, cinematic arts, they're creating these amazing films, really changing the way that Indigenous people are talked about, right? We're kind of retaking the center stage and telling our story from a new perspective. ⁓ And the poets, the poets are just fantastic and making people uncomfortable in great ways.

Garrett Peck: word worldview, but I shifted over to perspective because we all have them, right? We all have a different framework for how we approach the world and kind of challenging some of these, I think outdated perspectives. For example, the perspective of calling North America or South America or both the quote new world. It's like, what's so new about it? ⁓ We've had indigenous people here for at least 23,000 years, right? This is an outdated European perspective.

Tim Castano: A stirring, mystical, one-of-a-kind sight for a lit trip. who was a television writer. He received an Oscar for adapting John Ball's novel, In the Heat of the Night, with Rod Steiger and Sidney Paulyak. But I came in contact with Sterling's work because he was writing for a television series called Route 66 about two young men in a Corvette convertible traveling across the United States in search of America, the show said, and in search of themselves.

Kamella Cruz: So yeah, lots of individuals coming out of IAIA and we really hope to continue growing our program. ⁓ You know, we struggle to get poets in here ⁓ and you we'd love to raise awareness about IAIA and all the wonderful area that we share and get more students in here.

Garrett Peck: Just as people, Americans prefer to Europe sometimes as old Europe, or worse, old with an E on the end, We're both old, okay, right? So, ⁓ but so are kind of outdated perspectives that we've all grown up with ⁓ and so So, but just ⁓ how ancient landscape is, ⁓ we're very, very volcanic and high elevation states. And then just how ⁓ long ago native population arrived here, it's really, really special.

Tim Castano: What must a visitor see or experience to understand Benner Santa Fe? ⁓ Should person stay at the end of the turquoise bay, his former home that is now a lodging? And I wouldn't be a writer if it weren't for Route 66 and Sterling's work. I just fell in love with that series. And they've moved from, they shot it entirely on location across the United States as if we were with the two guys in the Corvettes as they traveled across the US. And the four episodes were filmed in New Mexico. One was filmed in ⁓ Carlsbad Caverns, a rarity.

Kelsey Brown: So I think that would be fun. I I have visited it as an inn. I think there was a young woman who grew up in that house before it was an inn. So when Benner died, he left the house to ⁓ St. John's College, believe, for ⁓ housing for faculty. I think her mother was the director of admissions or something. So she grew up in that house. And like they made it into several apartments.

Garrett Peck: And they've got stories to tell, right?

Tim Castano: and the other three were filmed in the Santa Fe area. So I was sort of programmed early through my indebtedness to Route 66, so that when I got here, in a way, I was channeling Sterling. ⁓ had said when he was here writing ⁓ episodes ⁓ he felt that it was a very special place. ⁓ in a way, ⁓ I'm here, ⁓ I think of Sterling a lot,

Kelsey Brown: And I remember reading something where she said that they felt that there were ghosts in the house. And she thought that maybe it was Binner. She liked to think it was Binner because I think she became a writer. so I think she liked to think that it was Binner. So yes, think living there would or staying there would be, an interesting, piece for, feeling what he felt. ⁓ Obviously, it's very different from he lived there. But other than that, I think Binner would want

Tim Castano: you mentioned that when you first visited Santa Fe 1998, you fell in love. ⁓ What about the city charmed ⁓ and are those charms universal, do you think, for all writers and artists?

Garrett Peck: I think so, yeah, our architecture is really unique. We have this style called Spanish Pueblo Revival. It actually originated from 1913, but borrowing from earlier cultures, from Pueblo culture, from Spanish culture and whatnot.

Tim Castano: He was sort of like a second father to me. We eventually became very close. We met and worked together. So that's part of it. it's a small community. We're only 70,000 people. there's a kind of encouragement to have an open mind about a of things. So no matter what I'm writing, it's sort of got that.

Kelsey Brown: visitors to really dive into the culture of Santa Fe. I think he would want you to go visit some of the pueblos, see some of the dances, ⁓ visit all of the religious sites that we have, the cathedral, the Cristo Rey Chapel, maybe go to Chimayo where the sacred dirt is. I think he was very bought into the very specific culture that is Santa Fe in northern New Mexico.

Garrett Peck: And so the city has a really distinct look to it. The art is based off the architecture. And, ⁓ you know, it's why do people want to go to Florence or Rome or Amsterdam, right? To go look at buildings, right? It's, it's, it's really is quite gorgeous. And then you get to like the fall. We start like burning pinion in people's fireplaces and it has this like this incense smell to it. It's just magical. Yeah. And then you got the Rockies are right there, just right there in the backdrop. So we are a high elevation city. catches a lot of people by surprise.

Tim Castano: kind of Santa Fe expansiveness to it. What would he think of Santa Fe's literary scene today?

Kelsey Brown: think he'd be excited by it. I think that he would be happy that it has continued to be a literary hub. And I think we have a lot of really ⁓ writers, but also young writers. ⁓ As you mentioned earlier on, have the Sanofé International Literary Festival, which brings unbelievable talent to Santa Fe and exposes not only Santa Fe,

Garrett Peck: Santa Fe is at 7,100 feet. So we're a quarter mile above Denver in terms of elevation. So we're the highest elevation state capital. And as a tour guide,

Kelsey Brown: and tourists, but they do a great job of including ⁓ and giving them free tickets and teachers and really making it a community event. And I think he would love that. I think he would love New Mexico School for the Arts that is focusing on not only creative writing, but also other types of arts. I think he would love that. And I think he would absolutely love the Santa Fe Youth Poet Laureate Program. I think he'd be thrilled that the foundation is focusing on the youth in this way and really making poetry accessible and showing that it is a path forward for young people.

Garrett Peck: I hope people will want to come out to Santa Fe. It's such a beautiful city. We, we, we punch way above our weight in terms of culture, just because the art scene that is here. And then we have a ton of hiking trails and we're not crowded, which is really cool to come out here. And so you can go for a hike and then go to an art gallery, you go to the opera and then world-class dining So it's, it's a really, a special place and it's compact and I just love it. It's my final destination.

Tim Castano: you shared how the past intrigues you and how you might even consider time provided you had access to sufficient inoculations. ⁓ Yes, definitely inoculations. Understanding Santa Fe's storied literary history, do you feel yourself connected to the authors of the past who once inhabited the city? ⁓ yes. Willa Cather in particular, very big fan of Willa Cather. ⁓ And that to the Archbishop, which is a strong Fe novel. mentioned a book called Extreme Denial. ⁓ I basically, the main character, former intelligence operative, ⁓ comes to Santa Fe, not because of grief, but for similar reasons, wanting to start over. And I thought it would be amusing. I changed the name of the street, but the hero's house in that book is my house. And there certain characteristics, like a crawl space, that I kept in the book. So I tell people, ⁓ if they like book, that they by most think that they're in my house because that's the house. you have said Santa Fe is a great place for writers to hide out, hunker down, and get our pages written. So even so, is there a community among you, either formally or informally? Well, there is informally. I belong to a Western watching group. There are six of us. And we meet, we've been meeting every year, every month for 14 years. ⁓ and we rotate the selections and the food. And, I certainly learned a lot about Westerns and, member, is a Kirk Ellis who's a multiple ⁓ multi winning, ⁓ Emmy recipient. he, he did, he's most known for doing, ⁓ having written produced the John Adams series. But he had done other things, an Anne Frank miniseries, a Beach Boys miniseries. And another ⁓ author, Johnny D. Boggs, is the most awarded Western novelist in history. Thomas Claggett is another award-winning Western novelist. ⁓ Robert Knott ⁓ ⁓ author of ⁓ books about John Garfield ⁓ and similar movie icons, Bud Betaker, the Western director, Randolph Scott movies particularly. So we have that group. And then there are many, many authors in town. Douglas Preston lives here, writers are solitary. If you're meant to have the career, You make sure that you're each day at this desk doing your pages. So it's not a highly social ⁓ occupation. So in many cases, I haven't seen, I'm good friends with Doug. I haven't seen him in a year. And there are one author who's currently getting a lot of attention is Hampton Sides, S-I-D-E-S, who's written an absolutely wonderful book called The Wide Wide Sea. about Captain Cook's third nautical mission, virtually around the world, for two years. And it's not a novel. It's nonfiction, but it reads. so exciting. And the issues that he talks about, one of which is that Cook, wherever he went, he'd go to all these islands in the Pacific. And wherever he went, they were at war. And it had nothing to do with ⁓ European corruption. No visitors had been there. It was just in their nature to hate the person, the tribe on the other side of the island. And that to me was a really strong, I mean, is it baked in to have that hostility and the species? I don't know. But the wide, wide sea by Hampton's side, that's a, and Hampton has done other, other books, of course, but I just happen to be enthusiastic about that one. you it's a very rich literary community, but don't see them very often. ⁓ And, you know, all polite to each other and we're glad to talk, ⁓ but it's not we're all getting together every weekend at a bar downtown or anything. already about, you talked about ⁓ Sterling Sillifant and you've also in past mentioned Philip as ⁓ mentors. ⁓ Do you have any... ⁓ writers whom you mentor and you know to that end does Santa Fe lend itself to interaction among different generations of writers? It does but I've not had that experience. I do mentor people. and I've had some success with it with people that that there's Karen ⁓ the Marsh King's ⁓ is a book she wrote, wonderful. It's partly a thriller, it's partly a family drama. And she had great success with it as a novel and then it was adapted into a feature movie. I knew Karen through writer's festivals and she asked me what I thought and I worked with her for it a bit. She's a wonderful author. And occasionally I do. I have to, And when somebody asks me, have to first of all decide whether the subject matter is exciting to me. And also whether or not the person asking me is, would be agreeable to ⁓ ⁓ people want ⁓ and aren't interested in somebody saying, you know, I think that climax may be, ⁓ maybe needs to be a little longer. Maybe it needs this. Maybe it needs that. And. ⁓ Sometimes the authors just get tired and they're not willing to make that extra effort. the writers I work with are ones that I kind of intuit are, ⁓ interested in the work rather than the gratification. ⁓ ⁓ been happy with how it turned Is there anywhere else you'd rather be? no, wouldn't. mean, I've been here a long time. I keep learning ⁓ in this small town. I mentioned Edward T. Hall and he was talking about the difference between a traditional Hispanic culture and what he called an Anglo culture. And he said, know, an Anglo tends to want to brag about what it wants to demonstrate. So you have these open spaces in front of a house. ⁓ Whereas a traditional Hispanic is tempted to build walls around the house for privacy. that, mean, in house after house after house, when I'm permitted to enter a place I'm not familiar with, it's like a new universe. house is different. you, if you know, when I lived in the Midwest and I'd go down the street, I knew what the layout of every house was. I knew that if I went into any of them, I would know where the bathroom was. ⁓ would know where the bedrooms were. I would know everything because the ⁓ was always the same. ⁓ in a Santa Fe house, the variety is astonishing. And sometimes work when my wife has taken to saying, let's take this route, this street, we've never been down it before. It's hard to believe after that many years. But so we go down the street and, and ⁓ my heavens, the houses look so different. It's like you're in a different country all of a sudden. it be just on daily basis, kind of excitement to ⁓ experience when you there was nothing new to experience something new. But then of course, for writers, a lot of it is You know, my, my goal is to get a certain number of pages done a day. So it's not like I'm driving around the community much. There are some days when I might not leave the house for, mean, except for the property, you know, maybe go for a walk or something, that, that I might not leave for five, six days. ⁓ went out to dinner with some friends last night and that think that's the first time we've been out of the house and ⁓ least a week. writers don't to go to an office ⁓ in the of another totally different place. this is a wonderful place to visit and a wonderful place to explore. And it's kind of cool to in a place that you think is fun enough. scenic enough to want to write about it,